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Hi All!

I have had so much fun reading and preparing for my grand piano purchase, and have to say my short list has formed! Your comments and conversations have been immensely helpful.

Here is my question. Satin finish. Evidently not all satin finishes are created equal. Some are softer, and scratch/mar easily and some are more durable and resistant. The reason this becomes an issue is because I have 2 young Suzuki players (ages 3 1/2 and 7) and 2 small dogs. My current piano is a polished U3. It seems like I am constantly wiping down the finger smudges, not to mention that it is a dust magnet! I was sort of hoping the satin would make my life easier, and I love the look of the satin! (Scratches haven't really been a problem for us, thankfully.)

I have 2 Estonias on my short list (the 168 and the 190) Both are wonderful instruments and a pleasure to play. (Which if course is the really important stuff!) During the ongoing discourse with the dealer, he mentioned that the Estonia in satin is virtually impossible to fix, should it be scratched. (It has to do with the finish application). He felt like the polished finish was easier to care for.

Conversely, a satin Schimmel 189 Konzert, evidently has a much "harder" finish. Evidently M & H are pretty easy to scratch too, but this one isn't on my list.

I'd love some feedback on everyone's experiences with the finish on their grands. Of course, commentary on your Schimmels, Vogels and Estonias are most welcome as well.



PS - Nancy - where are the pictures of the new Estonia? How does it sound in your home?

I don't know much about ebony satin finishes except that there are many ways to do them. I also know from experience that the new Mason ebony satin finishes(a black poly finish with clear lacquer on top) are easy to fix if they get scratches because I have had that done to my two year old BB. I wouldn't call them easy to scratch, but most people will put some scratches on the fallbaord as a natural result of playing.

Hey Schulwerk Girl--

Yes, it's home, and I took a lot of pictures. I've been spending my time alternating between playing the piano and looking for the cord to upload the photos! I hope I find it today.

It sounds great! I like it even better than I expected to. I'll post more later.

I was told the same thing about a satin finish, although they did add that the high gloss requires more regular cleaning because of the exact issue you described--fingerprints, smudges, etc. I have a dog who goes to the window right next to the piano, gets up and looks out, and I have been watching like a hawk to see if he's even thinking about putting a paw over on the piano. I did get a rider on my insurance policy ($6.60 per month) that will cover the piano for almost every conceivable issue, including scratches. It makes me feel better, though I doubt I would make a claim for a scratch since I think I'd wind up having my premiums raised overall. But it was a little security.

Nancy

Nancy-

I am so glad you're enjoying the new ivories! How does the bass sound? Did you get the satin finish?

An Ebony satin finish can be achieved via a couple different procedures utilizing different base materials depending on the piano manufacture.
Mason & Hamlin being a true American piano is a traditional hand rubbed lacquer finish. Whether they use a polyester primer coat(instead of sealer or ? )to fill the pores prior to the ebony base coat and clear coats,I don't know yet. It is the clear coat that gets hand rubbed not the black base coat.It is the same principal as a quality car paint job which in the auto industry is refered to as "base coat clear coat" though they don't hand rub or satinize cars.

Now the european and asian piano manufactures generally do not do a hand rubbed satin finish(exceptions are)though Bosendorfer and both Yamaha and Kawai DO because of the demand in the US.

The alternate satin or "matte" finish is what we call a gun or spray finish which after the primer coat a satining agent is added to the lacquer,polyurethane or polyester whereas no hand rubbing is necessary.This type of satin is very difficult to touch up as mentioned prior in that one may have to spray the entire piece or panel. There are no stridation marks from wet sanding or steel wool as for "hand rub" therefore has minimal reflective quality. A hand rubbed lacquer finish starts out with multiple coats of HIGLOSS clear which is hand rubbed satin but still retains that reflective quality. We do all these finishes but not the spray finish satin unless requested.

I do not like the sprayed satin finishes at all... many of them look horrible. They look like someone bought spray cans of black paint and did a homemade job!

I have an August Forster 215 with the high polish ebony... only because that is what was on the piano when I bought it. I would never buy a piano unseen or unplayed just to be able to order it with the finish I like.

I think the high polish is flashy and unsophisticated. I remember a beautiful 7' Baldwin in my high school back in the early 60's... with the lacquer rubbed-down satin finish... this was before the high polish was trendy. Steinways always used the same finishes.... they have much more class. It is a much more tasteful look. If you must have the high polish, it looks better in the woodgrains than in the ebony. The ebony looks like plastic (which now it is because of polyurethane.) If you go to Steinway Hall in NYC you will see that most of their concert grands are in the hand rubbed satin ebony finish.

Not to mention the finger marks and fine surface scratches that show up all the time. And yes, the dust is very obvious. Only 5 minutes after I have dusted my piano, I can see new specs showing up. I hate it. Give me a good rubbed-down satin finish any day. (I believe I can have mine rubbed down if I want... I think it is an expensive procedure)

Agree with Erad,

Personally I do not like the spray matte finishes- it hides imperfections but can look too artificial or mass produced. One hand made European brand offers this finish and when I saw it in person I thought it took away from an otherwise beautiful exterior. I would go with either rubbed satin ebony for understated elegance or if it is not offered go with a polished finish that really stands out.

Although I admit a piano's finish is very low on my priority list, it has been my experience that satin finishes tend to look the least disgusting in hard institutional use with minimal cleaning.

Bosendorfer and Schimmel's institutional models both have a satin finish, fwiw.

Polished ebony finish is the most classy and sophisticated. Matt finish looks like cheap worn out plastic that has been exposed to sun light for years. The only reason for a matt finish is it looks the same dirty and clean. Much the same way people buy "silver color" (i.e. gray) cars thinking they don't have to clean their cars often because dirt/dust/salt look gray anyways. How sophisticated!

well, obviously reasonable people can differ about high sheen vs. satin ebony finishes, as to which is classy and which not.

But, a more pointed question, probably for piano broker--is the high sheen, or 'polished ebony' a product of handwork or is it a gun or spray finish, too? You mention adding a 'satining' agent to the clear coat layer of the paint job to achieve the satin look without any handwork. Is the polished black finish of a European or Asian piano (other than the ones mentioned offering a hand rubbed satin finish) also achieved without hand work. From the name, I'd assumed the alternative is between 'polished' (handwork) and matte (gun finish). But from the way you described it, perhaps neither necessarily has much handwork?

Or have I completely confused myself?

High gloss finish is sprayed via multiple coats (clear coats) over the base coat black. You technically need more coats or more material for higloss because one can visually see everything on higloss especially if the finish "drops". It actually depends on the material.For lacquer multiple coats is required.Polyester and polyurethane muliple coats is not alway necessary. Initially like the car industry one has to level the clear via sandiing,wetsanding(color sand) and then machine and hand buff. You've probably heard of the term"orange peel" That along with the dust and whatever is in the air and paint need to be sanded smooth. Actually after sanding one either buffs with compound etc.for high gloss or does the final rub for satin (steel wool or ?). In both finishes the surface has to be smoooooooth!Thats why some have hitech spray booths to spray as clear and smooth as possible at the get go.
In one our facilities,I recruited the high end car painters to do my high gloss polyurethane and polyester in that their prep is much more meticulous than some piano guys. When was the last time you saw a black Ferrari with a wavey hood.

The Estonia ebony (black) matte finish is just that. Very matte with little or no sheen. It is difficult to repair. It comes off the gun the way it looks.

The Bosendorfer matte finish found on the CS series is also a true matte or flat finish, but with slightly more luster than the Estonia.

A traditional satin finish like found on a Steinway or Baldwin is accomplished with laquer that is sprayed on then rubbed down with some kind of abrasive that induces a grain or very faint parallel lines. This can be polished to varying degrees of luster. The material is much softer than polyester and scratches easily. Even a featuer duster can disturb the parellel line grain and show contrary marks in the light. Audiences never notice this from a distance when a piano is on stage.

This conversation would be unlikely if this were forty years ago. The high polish polyester option was not on the scene then for most pians found in the U.S. Today my guess is that over 85% of grands sold in the U.S. are rendered in high polish finish. It is truly easier to care for than the other choices. This is counter intuitive to your natural reaction.

The subject was well; discussed here [especially the contribution of Ori]:

https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/260614/Searchpage/1/Main/19529/Words/+satin/Search/true/Re:%20Satin%20vs.%20High%20Gloss%20%20[to%20.html#Post260614

schwammerl.

Just a liitle tibit insight that most are not aware of unless one does refinishing. If you spray a clear coat over a hand rubbed satin finish,the surface becomes higloss again.What you have done in essence is filled the scratches that you made when one rubbed out the piano with sandpaper,steel wool and or?

European and Asian satin finishes may be both spray finshes but they seem far apart in both quality and appearance. The German satins we have received are nothing short of stunning, so are the Estonia satins. https://www.pianoworld.com:80/Uploads/files/GROTRIANCHARISSATIN.jpg https://www.pianoworld.com:80/Uploads/files/IMG_2447.jpg Fixing them may be a different matter, but several dealers here have apparently figured out how to do it. Norbert

sorry double post

Thanks to all. I think I understand this better now. My usual combination of raw ignorance combined with confusion over terminology had me completely baffled. I'm sure that all the different alternatives can be executed poorly, or well, and tastes will differ as to appearances. But it's nice to have a clearer sense of what the issues and the alternatives are.