Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Flat Fingers vs. Curl Fingers - Which?

I'd say there needs to be a balance. Fingers shouldn't be flat, but they shouldn't be too curled in either. For most situations, fingers should be held somewhere in the middle of those too extremes. Sometimes, certain techniques will call for slightly flatter fingers - often arpeggiated passages.

No, fingers should not be 'held' at all. They lie there undisturbed until they're needed.

Chihuahua, you're on the right track when you said there's "a place for BOTH techniques rather than curled versus flat?"

I learned as a student and subsequently taught for many years that one should always play with curved fingers. Then, about ten years ago, I actually took a close look at what my fingers were doing when I played a blazingly fast chromatic scale: Finger 3 was 'popsicle stick' flat on every black key strike and finger 2 was completely curved every time it struck F & C!

This type of adjustment (using curved fingers on white keys and straight [or arched] fingers on black keys) works well because if the 'white key curved fingers' stay in the "grey zone" close to the black keys, simply arching or straightening out a finger to strike a black key keeps the hand in a calm, comfortable, position.

But, I do notice that once in a while, I'll play certain, short black/white key passages with completly curved fingers and honestly, I'm not really sure why. Sometimes, certain articulations and certain combinations of notes just work best with all the fingers totally curved.

Now, on the other side of the coin, I've watched slow motion video of Vladimir Horowitz in concert: What a revelation! He was playing with straight (or very slightly arched) fingers on both black and white keys... constantly! I have a non-scientific theory about this: Vladimir Horowitz's super-human, super-fast, electro-chemical response time allowed him to be able to play that way, for us mere mortals, we have to make calculated, technical adjustments to our technique to squeeze out every bit of juice we can.

Excellent post Chihuahua and good luck!

Paul

www.upscalepianolessons.com

Actually the science is that the smaller intrinsic muscles of the hand move faster than the larger flexors needed for curling. Upscale, your attitude to flat/curved/curling seems spot on - let the body decide.

Thanks for all the precious input!

Might I add to that a further explanation of curve vs. curl? For me, a curved finger is the shape that occurs when you allow the hand to hang by your side, and not do anything to the fingers. That is the shape I use. I also move the fingers from the top knuckle, so that when the fingers extend for a chord or wide interval, the slight curve still remains, but is more open. For me, a curl is something different. It is when you draw the bottom knuckle toward the palm. This produces tension. I'm not sure everyone in this discussion makes that distinction between the natural curve, and an active curl. Does that make sense?

This isn't Pamona, but I can tell you that the in and out movements are provided by the elbow moving in and out, allowing the fingers to lift and drop in the white key area where they are more comfortable, and where the key feels lighter(it's like a seesaw in that the farther away you are from the fulcrum-pin-the easier it is to put down). And they can do it without curling, which causes tension. Curling specifically means pulling in the bottom knuckle of the finger, rather than letting it stay in its natural curve. Hope this helps.

I saw Fazil Say on late night tv playing the Alla Turca.

His fingers were flat - and vertical.

???

oooo, funny
I just read keyboardmuse's two posts and thought: "I'm losing it! I don't remember writing that!"



(for anyone who can't see the avatars, we have the same one...)

Neither you, TimR or kbm have an avatar even though I've 'reset' to 'show avatars' in preferences. As for using the elbow in playing that's very mid-19th century and onwards. If you can choose which era's technique to use it's more fun and much more musical to play authentically. If you have a modern piano that's not concert weight keys you can get away with some quite extraordinary curling. The tension's unpleasant but you can stop it any time.

Hello currawong, I wasn't responding to anything you wrote, and don't understand why the responses appear out of sequence sometimes. Sorry if I disrupted your chain of thought.

Not at all . I didnt actually have a chain of thought ... I just thought it was funny that I was reading your posts and thinking I must have written it (because our avatars are the same - the lady with the black hat and the purple hair) but I couldn't remember having done so. Then I noticed YOU weren't ME.

As for responses appearing out of sequence, I have a suspicion that if you chose "threaded" view instead of "flat" things might look a whole lot different in regards to who seems to be replying to whom. But I'm definitely sticking with flat view because in my experience in other boards, threaded involves too much mouse work

I don't have them much either.

Well, I cannot believe this topic would run to 4 pages.

I have never given this matter a thought before. As I don't read music I only watch other pianists fingering at concerts or on my DVDs. Many seem to use curved fingers on scales. But I think the majority use both ways.

It all depends on the style of the music really. In jazz there are vamping chords which use both hands in alternately in some phrases.
It is surely impossible to play many chords with completely flat fingers? It's actually a matter of horses for courses. ?

swingal

I vote for flat - but not completely flat.

The great exemplar was Vladimir Horowitz. My observation is that he used flat fingers most of the time, and curved fingers when he wanted different tone color.

And it's not that simple. Check out YouTube for the Horowitz performances of Rach 3. The first and second joints (between the distal and medial phalanges and the medial and proximal phalanges), are nearly straight out - the fingers curve down ever so slightly at their base. But it's also true that there is a bit of a supporting arch visible in the hands themselves, so the hand is not entirely flat.

Look also at the recording he did in Moscow of the Scarlatti Sonata L33. You'll see the fingers at much same angle to the hands that he used in Rach 3, but in the case of the Scarlatti you'll see him using the wrist dropped below the level of the keytops - different than above the keytops for Rach 3.

Watch the video of him playing Scarlatti Sonata L23. Note the different ways he produced a stacatto effect - sometimes from the wrist, but also sometimes with a "grabbing" motion of the fingers from flat to curled in, but then immediately flat again.

As an aside - you'll also see him moving his hands towards and away from the end of the keys.

I hope this helps.

I was doing some Google searches and stumbled across this thread, so I thought I would join up and complicate the discussion somewhat, for good honest fun

first let me qualify my comments.
1. I primarily play clavichord and harpsichord. I don't own an acoustic piano at all.
2. I primarily play music from the renaissance and early baroque period, though I do dabble in Bach.
3. My teacher is a very adept harpsichordist who I'd hazard to say is nationally known in Canada.
4. He trained under Kenneth Gilbert in Paris, who himself is recognized by many as one of THE experts when it comes to the interpretation of baroque keyboard music.

Now, I by no means am expert enough to really defend my teachers views. I'm simply too amatuer. So forgive me if I personally cannot back up what I say very well.
Also, keep in mind that harpsichord touch is incredibly light compared to piano.
Clavichord requires more wieght, but again requires substantially different technique to maintain a sound (as anyone who has played one will attest)

All that being said, I am being constantly taught (and reminded again and again) to "make my hands as small as possible".
This involves curling the fingers to the point where I am on the verge of playing on my fingernails.
And (as someone noted) if one adhere's to historical fingering or even semi-historical, there is a lot of what my teacher calls
picking up your dangling sausages, moving them over and dropping them down again.

The point I want to throw in though, and which may cause much disagreement, is that, yes legato is lost.
But that is not a side effect of the different hand position and fingering, but rather the INTENT of that technique.
Long legato passages are not historically accurate. It is not what the composers heard or intended.
In fact, deliberately 'awkward' fingerings are used to
a) enforce mini breathing points in articulation/shorten the phrases
b) group notes and short passages together as phrases and separate them from other phrases
c) facilitate finger pedalling of groups of notes (overlaps) if required
d) create 'inegalite' in passages by using the natural tendency of strong fingers vs weak fingers on note length.

Again, I can't back this up very well, I'll try a bit, but I am forced to have faith in my teacher's knowledge and lineage.


Discuss - if you like

Hi and welcome, Sparrow!

A post as good as this deserves its own thread, rather than an add-on at the end of an old one, where, as happens in the course of time, many of the posters have left the building, so they won't be doing any discussing. (that's not to say others won't join in anyway)

I actually have a clavichord, so I know what you mean about it requiring more weight, in spite of the gentle volume. You really feel you're playing the strings directly with your fingers. I love it! (Mine is a Zuckermann fretted clavichord which I built myself years ago from a kit, when I had more time and was more adventurous )

cheers - hope to see you around.
currawong (as one bird to another)

Thanks Curra. Nice to see at least on clavichord player on these boards

The Sparrow, I also own one and concur everything you say (though I love playing Chopin Mazurkas on mine also).

Chopin on clavichord you say? Interesting.
Any video or audio clips?