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I should add that a fair bit of practical advice was given in the first few pages by a number of the teachers. It would be too bad if all that were swallowed up by ill feelings.
KS
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With so little background in what music study is about it is very easy for adults to throw their weight around in the forum and not at all realize that they are represent themselves as coming from a small dimension of what piano study is all about and the principles, theories, and mastering of music is not yet complete.
I am really tired of your singling me out Monica.
Your feel good approach to music is what you have to voice from and while that's appreciated, it is in my way a domain that would allow you to set standards of communication between piano teachers and piano teachers.
So you don't like me, my communication style, and whatever else is on your mind. You do not get to censor me according to your references of how you relate to your instrument.
They are not deragatory or offensive unless you choose to take them that way.
I have great relationships with my students - children and adults - occasionally it is not a good fit between us, but usually based on an attitude coming from the adult student or the parent. Piano teachers and serious performers know what it takes to create a musician: the attitudes, habits instilled, dedication, patience, work ethics, and application of the self to the learning of a very encompassing mental and physical coordination of one person working to create music.
It is not the feel good, I'll do what I want, it's just for me world that you think it is. Only by rejecting teachers does an adult student get to do it his or her way. I'm all for that when the person has developed some tried and true accuracy at the piano and is not just fumbling and stumbling around so much that it impedes their ability to understand the discipline and self management that is needed.
And, for this viewpoint that I'm expressing, only because I am continuously taunted by you and brought to your form of accountability, which is purely from your "fun" viewpoint, my 38 years of teaching are diminished and questioned and put in contempt.
Calling it generalizations is strange.
My "generalizations" have come from diligent work in training musicians - forefront experience.
The secret is out: Adults do have problems in learning piano. When piano is difficult or not easily achievable, the explanation from the adult student is that teachers don't know how to teach them.
Show me an avid learner and it's a done deal. Show me an excuse maker or complainer or totally lost adult student, and I will say piano study is not going to work very well for them because of the focus on how they are "feeling" and how "easy" it should be: It's truly one of the hardest thinking skills you will ever think of doing, and the % of people who accomplish this to the level they need to reach in order to play well is small.
I am going to call the singling out of certain teachers because you do not agree with them - abuse. I think some of what is said to teachers here is the poster angry when teachers point out something meaningful to consider and the student resent the "interferance" which differs with their own concepts about what music study should be.
Persistance with messages no one else wants to here works in both directions.
Not all people are teachable. That works both ways too. I simply have a lot of experience to consider I didn't formulate my philosophy and theories by myself, I had my students help and input with every lesson I have given.
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[...] For piano teachers, when someone says "Adult Beginner" a lot of information comes to mind as an associative thing based on our knowledge of adult beginners. There will be a mix of wonderful things and some not wonderful things - because that is the way the brain works like a data base. It will be our personal experience base and our world of music base.
[...]
Our peer discussions are not derogatory comments toward adult students. There is no reason for anyone to be offended. Betty, this sounds suspiciously like "baggage"! Previously, you were emphatic that adult students have but teachers don't: When an adult student joins this conversation with their understanding of how they think teachers should treat them, they are surprized that we are not captivated by their "baggage" and "situations" because they are an important part of the inquirees history. Once we hear some of these things that adults bring up that are problematic, we can get quite turned off by it, because we should not have to solve the problems of the last teacher and this student. To me, it doesn't enter the situation, this is a new situation. If any baggage is coming into our new situation, it is from the student. I'm relieved to know that teachers have "baggage," too, after all! As others have pointed out, it doesn't seem possible to expect "peer discussions" in a public venue like this one. Short of a private and genuinely exclusive subforum for that purpose, at least there's greater functionality now that allows PMs to be exchanged among a group of up to six participants. That's not a perfect answer, but it's something we didn't have before that might be utilized when it's felt necessary. Steven
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The focus can be on the negative messages or the positive ones. It is natural to react to the negative: the positive can be chosen.
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Why are teachers who know that all students are individuals, both children and adults, are making generalizations about adult students? For example, Betty wrote: The secret is out: Adults do have problems in learning piano. When piano is difficult or not easily achievable, the explanation from the adult student is that teachers don't know how to teach them.
This is an insulting generalization. Sure, some adult students are like that. But many others are not. Yet, from her other comments, it seems clear that she realizes there are adult students who aren't afraid of hard work. I really don't know what to make of this contradiction. Mary
Music should strike fire from the heart of man, and bring tears from the eyes of woman. -- Beethoven
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Tickler/Mary, I find it difficult to understand as well, and I know that there are others who have been confused by such statements in the past. With so little background in what music study is about it is very easy for adults to throw their weight around in the forum and not at all realize that they are represent themselves as coming from a small dimension of what piano study is all about and the principles, theories, and mastering of music is not yet complete. I am wondering whether this entire post was talking about Monica in particular, although purporting to discuss "adult students"? Because if so, just because we are "adult students" does not mean we have little background in music. My first undergraduate degree was in music ed...at one time, in the past, I was a rural piano teacher myself, although I believed even then that I did not have the qualifications to be (what I considered) a high-quality piano teacher, there was simply no one else around who was even as advanced as I was. My family even now chides me for not giving lessons since 'I have a piano and know how to play' (the only criteria that many people think needs to be met before teaching). Compared to those I currently know who have had high-quality instruction all along and who are now MA and PhD students in music at the campus where I work, my music background is not all that impressive. But I do have one.
Adult Amateur Pianist
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About “Generalizationâ€
I used a thesaurus to define Generalization: As each new definition appeared I continued to define the new work until we have a broad list of things included in generalization. The list is alphabetically presented. Antonyms (opposites) are at the bottom.
Abridgment
Abstract
Clue
Digest
Extraction
General idea
Generality
Generalizing statement
Hint
Impression
Indication
Inkling
Intangible
Nonfigurative
Outline
Oversimplification
Overview
Precis
Pointer
Review
Rundown
Sign
Signal
Simplification
Suggestion
Summary
Summation
Summing up
Suspicion
Sweeping statement
Synopsis
Trace
Unjustified remark
Vague remark
Warning
Antonyms (Opposites):
Detail
Facet
Fact
Factor
Itemize
Specify
There is nothing wrong with making a generalization.
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Betty, I've read your response above, and I would like to respond to the parts that are pertinent to all. First you mention the responses that teachers gave in an effort to help the OP and any other student in a similar situation. They were HELPFUL and they are as follows: - John proposed that the OP was on the right track, and suggested that in his region there should be a choice of many teachers - kbk indicated that most teachers stress the Romantic period, so a clavi/harpsichordist might address the desired period - Chris H. suggested a grass roots teacher such as himself, and indicated they would have more than adequate qualifications - Chris H. then described where to look, and how to present oneself; he also suggested that the OP might not be doing anything wrong, and encouraged him to keep looking - Morodiene gave advice about specialists, but advised a generalist at this stage, seeing the OP as early-intermediate - Betty suggested university resources, and spoke positively about the OP's ultimate ambitions - MordentMusic saw nothing wrong with the OP's goals - Neilos gave precise detailed advice on Feb. 27, p. 3 - Currawong was overall supportive - anyone I have left out and what they said For the first three pages the most experience teachers weighed in, and their feedback was positive and practical on the whole. For some reason after that the question of poor expectations of adults kept cropping up. Does it not make sense to pay attention to the positive since that's what we can use? The only use that I see for poor expectations - is that it can be a potential obstacle so we should be prepared for that possibility. Now I would like to address this: when teachers point out something meaningful to consider and the student resent the "interference" Resentment was expressed only at the statements that adults are poor students, and not at any of the helpful advice I have mentioned. WAS the statement of poor adult reputations made in order to be helpful? How can I use this information? The fact is that at this point teachers were venting among themselves. You have pointed this out yourself, Betty. These things were not meant for us, I don't find them meaningful, and I have not responded to them accordingly. I think we should all concentrate on what is actually useful and leave the rest aside. We are all here for the same purpose, are we not? It is very easy to get lost in the negatives. Will it achieve anything?
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I think I'm getting lost.  Betty, I don't understand the point of the list of synonyms (and antonyms) for generalization. If one is to conclude from it that there's nothing wrong with generalizations, neither would there appear to be anything wrong with the opposites. Steven
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The word list derails the topic. Efforts have been made: can they not be considered?
Generalization includes: "suspicion, unjustified remark"
Antonyms to these are: "trust, fair comment"
Which do you choose?
Can we go back to the topic now?
KS
Last edited by keystring; 03/06/09 07:57 PM.
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The problem is not with generalizations, if they are clearly labeled...as generalizations...or as personal experiences.
The problem is with insulting and inaccurate generalizations being presented as fact.
Adult Amateur Pianist
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Keystring,
Useful to whom? Much of what you have quoted of me are the things I wish to talk about with other teachers that did come up in the thread at least in the way that I read and understand things to mean.
When we have to say "No" to a student we can discuss the reasons why we are saying no. That doesn't mean our posting means we are dissing anyone or complaining about the quality of adult beginners. What is being considered as an insult by the adult student is an attempt by me to learn more from other teachers why we say no. No, because.....with an explanation. These kinds of things help us by being topics.
Because of our different slants from where we are coming, I feel that teachers are being grossly misunderstood here. We take risk to state anything because there will be or may a whiplash.
I receive criticism quite frequently. It's a given here.
And, I did not target Monica as an example or attack. I replied to her in the line of her posting and some of our previous discussion together have left us wary in our differences of opinion.
My credo is for the highest good of all and I have practiced it all of my married life and in my music making. It is amazing to me that several posters see me in the light that I am insulting adult students or anyone else for that matter.
I appreciate you, Keystring, as the facilitator and negotiator who has often clafified what is transpiring. This was a lot of effort on your part to reconstruct. And, I understand you have a good intention.
The only thing I can think to add here is a marriage counseling technique that goes: one person makes a statement, the other person repeats it exactly as said. The repeater asks a question: Did I understand you to say ________? And the original speaker verifies if they have understood each other.
I am sorry to see people stressing and I feel there is a "warp" in understanding between us when you react to something that is not really about you or any one else in particular. It is being spoken in a generalization and for that matter can be hypothetical. It is not your integrity that is at risk. Defense and attack is not necessary. This could be a great learning opportunity for all if we could be civil about our different viewpoints.
Concentrating on the useful as Keystring suggest is a good idea whose time has come. And, the question "will it achieve anything?" is in the making of future relationships.
Please do not take offense where none is meant.
PM me if you have something you want to say directly, I'd welcome the opportunity to work differences out or just to agree to disagree.
Thank you.
Betty
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Prodigal Pianist posted: 'The problem is with insulting and inaccurate generalizations being presented as fact.'
I truly am not recognizing any insulting or inaccurate comments attributed to myself.
Can you help me with this as it applies to you by exactly quoting the words that have offended you.
I will reread your posts at some point and see if I can find what you are referring to exactly if you will give me a clue.
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I truly am not recognizing any insulting or inaccurate comments attributed to myself. Um, well, I personally would characterize your previous post directed at me as being both insulting and inaccurately representing my position: With so little background in what music study is about it is very easy for adults to throw their weight around in the forum and not at all realize that they are represent themselves as coming from a small dimension of what piano study is all about and the principles, theories, and mastering of music is not yet complete.
I am really tired of your singling me out Monica.
Your feel good approach to music is what you have to voice from and while that's appreciated, it is in my way a domain that would allow you to set standards of communication between piano teachers and piano teachers.
So you don't like me, my communication style, and whatever else is on your mind. You do not get to censor me according to your references of how you relate to your instrument.
They are not deragatory or offensive unless you choose to take them that way.
I have great relationships with my students - children and adults - occasionally it is not a good fit between us, but usually based on an attitude coming from the adult student or the parent. Piano teachers and serious performers know what it takes to create a musician: the attitudes, habits instilled, dedication, patience, work ethics, and application of the self to the learning of a very encompassing mental and physical coordination of one person working to create music.
It is not the feel good, I'll do what I want, it's just for me world that you think it is. Only by rejecting teachers does an adult student get to do it his or her way. I'm all for that when the person has developed some tried and true accuracy at the piano and is not just fumbling and stumbling around so much that it impedes their ability to understand the discipline and self management that is needed.
And, for this viewpoint that I'm expressing, only because I am continuously taunted by you and brought to your form of accountability, which is purely from your "fun" viewpoint, my 38 years of teaching are diminished and questioned and put in contempt.
Calling it generalizations is strange.
My "generalizations" have come from diligent work in training musicians - forefront experience.
The secret is out: Adults do have problems in learning piano. When piano is difficult or not easily achievable, the explanation from the adult student is that teachers don't know how to teach them.
Show me an avid learner and it's a done deal. Show me an excuse maker or complainer or totally lost adult student, and I will say piano study is not going to work very well for them because of the focus on how they are "feeling" and how "easy" it should be: It's truly one of the hardest thinking skills you will ever think of doing, and the % of people who accomplish this to the level they need to reach in order to play well is small.
I am going to call the singling out of certain teachers because you do not agree with them - abuse. I think some of what is said to teachers here is the poster angry when teachers point out something meaningful to consider and the student resent the "interferance" which differs with their own concepts about what music study should be.
Persistance with messages no one else wants to here works in both directions.
Not all people are teachable. That works both ways too. I simply have a lot of experience to consider I didn't formulate my philosophy and theories by myself, I had my students help and input with every lesson I have given. I don't expect you to recognize why some of us are insulted by comments like this, because as Einstein so aptly said, insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting a different result. Have a good weekend, Betty.  Get some rest. You seem tired and out of sorts this evening.
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Betty, thank you for your response. Your mailbox is full, so you are not accessible. I have chosen to focus only on the practical that pertains to a serious student wishing to work with a teacher to that purpose - in other words, the OP's purpose. Therefore on the question of "poor record of adult students" I will only allow myself to consider how this might apply to that situation. It does apply, in that a good student may miss out if the general bad reputation of adults holds sway. We live in a real world and things are not always fair. It is important to be aware, so that we can be proactive. I have no comment on "poor record" statements. It is not something I prefer to focus on. I have summarized the advice that did come forth from teachers, which went for beyond that one idea which has now held sway. These are important points that were offered. is an attempt by me to learn more from other teachers why we say no Might it help to state that you are addressing teachers with a separate topic, or even open a new topic, in order to avoid confusion? If you simply say "adults are this" in the middle of a thread where an adult has asked for help, people will not know where you are coming from. In any case, your clarification is appreciated. KS
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Keystring, I went back and had a look at some of your posts, and since so many have been edited, I wasn't really sure what post you would like me to respond to?
Personally, I have never said no to taking on an adult student...However, it has been my experience that the majority of adults I've taught over the years have had issues with dedication, practice, and even lesson attendance. There have also been greater cases of technical ability progressing rather slowly due to hand/muscle tension having developed over many years, and it has been very difficult to reformulate their physical habits into proper pianistic ability..much reiteration of advice and time involved with very little results overall.
I have also found, personally, that adult students are very self-critical and anxious, and I have found that a great deal of lesson time is often devoted to working through their pyschological issues in order for them to focus...Again, as these issues have developed over many years, they have been really challenging to overcome. These adult students are, for me, very draining, as the hurdles they need to overcome can take years..as I've noticed my teaching advice is not absorbed or adhered to even after lengthy reiteration over months. However, I do admire their persistance in taking lessons, and see any small step, no matter how long it takes to achieve, as a great accomplishment. Nonetheless, if other teachers experience these qualities in adult students, I can understand why some choose to say no to taking on adult students.
With that said, I have had and still have, some adult students who are keen and dedicated to learning and listen with great eagerness to my teaching guidance and go to conscious lengths to apply it to their playing and musical experience...and they are a joy to teach as they give of their energies, as much as they take of mine.
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lotus crystal really expresses my view best. But, all the same, I've decided to extend the olive branch to all who felt offended. I'm sorry.
I think what's happened to me is I've invested my heart and soul into a number of adult students and my instruction of them was seemingly fruitless to me. But I'm open to the possibility that they gained something from their interaction with me. I should just be content with that.
All the best to the adult students.
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Lotuscrystal, that water has gone under the bridge. I had deleted the post asking if you had noticed the post addressed to you, but since Betty was anxious about what it might have said I mentioned it. My edits, btw, would be to make a sentence clear but not to alter content. Thank you for your description of your experience with your students - I also understand that this is common. Can you entertain the possibility that it doesn't go that way for some of us, but that expectation may be there because of what has preceded us? If I passed my first exam "with distinction" at 4 months, to the other child-student's two years, and had curiosity rather than anxiety, it doesn't follow that pattern. I am mentioning this in order to give something concrete. I assumed my experience will have been matched or surpassed by other adult students, even if we are not among the norm cited by teachers. If there are adults who do not fit that pattern, but teachers expect it because that is their experience, then that can lead to an "interesting" interaction from the onset. There is no way that as an adult student I can be aware of what a teacher commonly experiences and therefore expects. As written before, It seems important to be aware of the reality of teacher experience and expectation so that we can be proactive instead of mystified. I wonder if it is equally important for teachers to be consciously aware that they will carry this expectation, and it will be there before even meeting the student? Fwiw, this was the post I had written some days ago addressed to you. At the time you had explained about freedom of "demographic" choice. I remain always in the context of an adult student pursuing serious study, such as the OP. I also assumed that some adults do not have those attributes, and that these may find themselves before closed doors. Lotus, the problem involves extrapolating what you think someone is capable of based on a group portrait. It closes doors on the individual who may not be anything like that. If enough teachers exercise their demographic right then there is nowhere to go.
Secondly, there is the danger that we will be taught according to the common perception and fail to come anywhere near our potential. Certain things must be done to acquire proficiency, some of them arduous. If they are not given, we will not progress. For those with talent, they will "ride on talent" but without a foundation to support them - it's the worse for them because they will hear what is missing and remain bewildered.
Can you not see that there is a potential problem? In the least, we must be aware in order to deal with it. I would not have thought any of these things 5 years ago.
Last edited by keystring; 03/07/09 06:53 AM.
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Keystring, knowing myself and many of my colleagues and I'm sure many teachers on this forum...I really have to say that any good teacher would not 'cut you short' of your potential in their method of teaching just because you present as an adult. It's ludicrously against the art of the teaching philosophy. If teachers are witness to your dedication and willingness to apply their guidance and to work together toward your potential, they will enlist you as one of the many who are worthy of all of their efforts (regardless of their past experiences with adult students)..as they would see the 'ebb and flow' of your efforts and progress as experienced together with theirs for you, on an equal par. However, in my experience, and from what I have read of the experience of others, such dedication to the art of learning and modification of past unhealthy habits, has not been consistently present with adult students. But by no means, is this meant as any disregard to you or any of the other adult students who have graced this thread. Perhaps you are all 'dream' adult students, and students that we would be grateful and blessed to teach
Last edited by lotuscrystal; 03/07/09 07:42 AM.
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Lotuscrystal, in this thread we are considering the moment of finding a teacher and defining the course of the lesson. If hypothetically almost all good teachers refuse adult students, then the student is left with those who are less serious or capable. That would definitely have an effect.
There are other scenarios but it would be too complicated for this thread. It is vital to know how to state your intentions if you are an adult. You do not want to find yourself in a stream emphasizing music (pieces) and patching in a bit of technique on an as-needed basis. These things can and do happen. Even if a teacher responds to the student's progress, it is not the same as methodical building of skills with an emphasis on the same. It is in this sense that I am writing of not reaching potential.
KS
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