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Re: The first time Lang Lang... [Re: pianovirus] #1158365
03/06/09 10:05 AM
03/06/09 10:05 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
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izaldu Offline
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If you listen to the 1964 Wldstein by Kempff and Gilels 's Waldstein, one of the two is inaccurate or not score perfect. Who cares.

My brother (who is quite demanding with soloists) saw Chailly and the Gewandhaus a couple weeks back, which he loved. First on theprogram was Mendelssohn's 1st with Lang Lang, for who he had no previous opinion. He thought he was "quite good, i was looking at Chailly anyway"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuA8VtcCftg

I think LL will grow. Until then he can be very good, bad or just plain irritating.

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Re: The first time Lang Lang... [Re: newport] #1158372
03/06/09 10:20 AM
03/06/09 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by newport
If you don't have all those pre-conceived ideas of how any piano works should be played, I don't see how this performance can be called "inaccurate", "misplaced", or "arbitrary"?

It's original and it should be commended for that.


There's a difference between "preconceived" and following the score(the composer's instructions). You can't play a waltz with the accent on the second beat or play a piece marked Allergo at an Adagio tempo or ignore other score markings.

Nor can you add things that are so extreme that the composer would have indicated them if he wanted the piece played that way. When one plays a piece in this fashion it is putting oneself ahead of the composer's wishes and in effect saying one knows more than the composer about the way a piece should be played e.g. "You should have really marked a big accelerando here but you didn't etc." There is range of correctness and LL regularly goes far beyond it.

"Originality" means nothing and is worth nothing for its own sake. Originality when it goes beyond the composer's written intentions and is musically unjustified is in fact a HUGE negative. As another poster has said, in the Chopin Etude performance LL did a great that was not indicated or justified by the score. I don't think his performance would get him through the first round of a minor competition.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 03/06/09 10:30 AM.
Re: The first time Lang Lang... [Re: newport] #1158374
03/06/09 10:28 AM
03/06/09 10:28 AM
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Posts: 2,047
Minneapolis, Minnesota
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I loved it. Thought it was beautiful. Thought it was heartfelt.

Tomasino




"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10

Re: The first time Lang Lang... [Re: tomasino] #1158406
03/06/09 11:16 AM
03/06/09 11:16 AM
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newport Offline
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Are we all supposed to be equalized before the supposed composer's wishes? There are too many suppositions here. Now more suppositions: They will be thrilled any of their works are still being played and discussed. They wouldn't mind people putting a little more life and variations into it. That's called creativity.

Last edited by newport; 03/06/09 11:17 AM.

Chopin Bolero
Schumann Piano Concerto
John
Re: The first time Lang Lang... [Re: pianoloverus] #1158420
03/06/09 11:41 AM
03/06/09 11:41 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 888
Somewhere in Europe
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by newport
If you don't have all those pre-conceived ideas of how any piano works should be played, I don't see how this performance can be called "inaccurate", "misplaced", or "arbitrary"?

It's original and it should be commended for that.


There's a difference between "preconceived" and following the score(the composer's instructions). You can't play a waltz with the accent on the second beat or play a piece marked Allergo at an Adagio tempo or ignore other score markings.

Nor can you add things that are so extreme that the composer would have indicated them if he wanted the piece played that way. When one plays a piece in this fashion it is putting oneself ahead of the composer's wishes and in effect saying one knows more than the composer about the way a piece should be played e.g. "You should have really marked a big accelerando here but you didn't etc." There is range of correctness and LL regularly goes far beyond it.

"Originality" means nothing and is worth nothing for its own sake. Originality when it goes beyond the composer's written intentions and is musically unjustified is in fact a HUGE negative. As another poster has said, in the Chopin Etude performance LL did a great that was not indicated or justified by the score. I don't think his performance would get him through the first round of a minor competition.


Competitions are stupid. Judges expect boring, ordinary performance.
I am not a fan of LL, but i like the fact that he has guts to do something different.

Last edited by GreenRain; 03/06/09 11:53 AM.
Re: The first time Lang Lang... [Re: newport] #1158422
03/06/09 11:45 AM
03/06/09 11:45 AM
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Posts: 25,511
New York City
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Originally Posted by newport
Are we all supposed to be equalized before the supposed composer's wishes? There are too many suppositions here. Now more suppositions: They will be thrilled any of their works are still being played and discussed. They wouldn't mind people putting a little more life and variations into it. That's called creativity.


Classical music is not like jazz or pop singing. In jazz one can play a song that was originally a slow ballad and play it up tempo. One can change the harmony significantly.

I would suggest listening to any performances of the Chopin Etude on Youtube and that you have the score in front of you while doing this. You should find that the performances are all somewhat different but not too many, hopefully, stray unmusically beyond what's written. Hopefully you'll find they are not "equalized" yet many of the pianists have something interesting(and appropriate) to say.

Most composers are very particular about the marking in their scores and would not like "putting a little more life and variations" into their works in the sense you mean. This would imply they didn't know what they were doing when they wrote the piece. I assure you Chopin knew a lot more about composing for the piano than Lang Lang. He was also one of the greatest performers who ever lived.

Re: The first time Lang Lang... [Re: pianoloverus] #1158431
03/06/09 12:08 PM
03/06/09 12:08 PM
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OK .. where is Jazz when Chopin was alive? So in Chopin's world there is no room for creativity? If the supreme perfection in his mind is to conform, why did he write music different than others? Did he play Bach exactly like Bach intended it? If Chopin wanted to be different, would he not allow others to be different? Or he did, but except when it comes to his own creation?

More suppositions and self-imposed restrictions.


Chopin Bolero
Schumann Piano Concerto
John
Re: The first time Lang Lang... [Re: pianoloverus] #1158432
03/06/09 12:09 PM
03/06/09 12:09 PM
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Posts: 22,796
Victoria, BC
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
[...]Chopin [...] was also one of the greatest performers who ever lived.


That's not quite accurate. While Chopin did perform in salon-like settings, i.e., recitals in private homes, he was known to have performed in only four (maybe five?) public concerts in his adult life because he had a pathological fear of performing in public. Moreover, criticism of his few performances highlighted his thin, weak tone, or that he played too quietly. Therefore, I don't think that one can call him "one of the greatest performers who ever lived," unless you have a different interpretation of the word "performer" than most people do.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: The first time Lang Lang... [Re: BruceD] #1158437
03/06/09 12:24 PM
03/06/09 12:24 PM
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Posts: 25,511
New York City
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
[...]Chopin [...] was also one of the greatest performers who ever lived.


That's not quite accurate. While Chopin did perform in salon-like settings, i.e., recitals in private homes, he was known to have performed in only four (maybe five?) public concerts in his adult life because he had a pathological fear of performing in public. Moreover, criticism of his few performances highlighted his thin, weak tone, or that he played too quietly. Therefore, I don't think that one can call him "one of the greatest performers who ever lived," unless you have a different interpretation of the word "performer" than most people do.

Regards,


Personally I haven't read much negative criticsm of his tone during his performances although I've read a few bios. I'm not saying your tone comment isn't true, but on the other hand I know the audiences and critics were almost universally thrilled by his playing.

Would you prefer "one of the greatest pianists" of all time?

Re: The first time Lang Lang... [Re: pianoloverus] #1158439
03/06/09 12:31 PM
03/06/09 12:31 PM
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newport Offline
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by BruceD
[quote=pianoloverus][...]Chopin [...] was also one of the greatest performers who ever lived.


Would you prefer "one of the greatest pianists" of all time?

We should be celebrating an artist's creative spirit. Nothing more, nothing less.


Chopin Bolero
Schumann Piano Concerto
John
Re: The first time Lang Lang... [Re: pianovirus] #1158454
03/06/09 12:56 PM
03/06/09 12:56 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,728
not somewhere over the rainbow
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I find it hard to appreciate someone who compares Prokofiev to a video game.

Sorry.. Everything is exaggerated, arrogant and fake, at least in my eyes.



"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
Re: The first time Lang Lang... [Re: BruceD] #1158457
03/06/09 01:06 PM
03/06/09 01:06 PM
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Posts: 4,728
not somewhere over the rainbow
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
[...]Chopin [...] was also one of the greatest performers who ever lived.


That's not quite accurate. While Chopin did perform in salon-like settings, i.e., recitals in private homes, he was known to have performed in only four (maybe five?) public concerts in his adult life because he had a pathological fear of performing in public. Moreover, criticism of his few performances highlighted his thin, weak tone, or that he played too quietly. Therefore, I don't think that one can call him "one of the greatest performers who ever lived," unless you have a different interpretation of the word "performer" than most people do.

Regards,


That's also not quite true - if you read what Chopin's students write about him, they say he had phenomenal technique, phenomenal singing tone, and amazing understanding of phrasing (among other things). His playing was always elegant and never overblown like so many people today play Chopin (myself included). They write that all this stuff about Chopin being a bad pianist are myths..



"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
Re: The first time Lang Lang... [Re: Pogorelich.] #1158525
03/06/09 03:16 PM
03/06/09 03:16 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,796
Victoria, BC
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The issue being discussed at this juncture is Chopin's reputation as a "performer" which implies public concert performances. Yes, in the confines of salons where he gave private recitals and as a teacher in private homes, his playing revealed a phenomenal technique, singing tone and elegance of execution.

The point that I was making - and I never said Chopin was a "bad pianist" was that his public - i.e. concert - performances were very few and that, elegance of execution and exceptional technique notwithstanding, his playing was reported by critics not to be forceful enough project anything but a rather thin, weak tone into the concert hall of his day.

Whether we believe what Chopin scholars write about his playing, or whether we believe what Chopin's students write about his playing, at this remove in time perhaps both are tinged with some degree of exaggeration or innacuracy.

That Chopin was one of the great pianists of all time is not in dispute; that Chopin was one of the greatest performers of all time may well be debatable.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: The first time Lang Lang... [Re: Pogorelich.] #1158553
03/06/09 04:29 PM
03/06/09 04:29 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,501
Champaign, IL
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Originally Posted by AngelinaPogorelich
I find it hard to appreciate someone who compares Prokofiev to a video game.

Sorry.. Everything is exaggerated, arrogant and fake, at least in my eyes.


Lyk 2 handz fighting ...

Hooah!!


Amateur Pianist, Scriabin Enthusiast, and Octave Demon
Re: The first time Lang Lang... [Re: Fleeting Visions] #1158557
03/06/09 04:42 PM
03/06/09 04:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,654
New York City
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I saw a YouTube video of him playing the Mozart Bb snota at the proms. I liked his playing there, and if he played like that consistently, I would like him more overall.

Re: The first time Lang Lang... [Re: Phlebas] #1158565
03/06/09 05:00 PM
03/06/09 05:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 999
The Midwest
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After we discussed Lang Lang's playing elsewhere, I thought it would have been hard to find a video of him playing that, but fortunately, it was not.


[Linked Image]
Re: The first time Lang Lang... [Re: George K] #1158566
03/06/09 05:04 PM
03/06/09 05:04 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 634
Romney WV
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Romney WV


"Beauty is unbearable, drives us to despair, offering us for a minute the glimpse of an eternity that we should like to stretch out over the whole of time."

-Albert Camus,

Jim
Re: The first time Lang Lang... [Re: George K] #1158571
03/06/09 05:12 PM
03/06/09 05:12 PM
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Posts: 4,654
New York City
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You're right it's not, but here's a link anyway. His playing is a little more reserved, and phlegmatic than the usual antics you see from him.


Re: The first time Lang Lang... [Re: Phlebas] #1158573
03/06/09 05:15 PM
03/06/09 05:15 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,966
The Evergreen State (WA)
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Sorry, must compose myself. It's not that funny. Didn't we get into a really big flame war about this guy once?

Last edited by jodi; 03/06/09 05:18 PM.
Re: The first time Lang Lang... [Re: Phlebas] #1158575
03/06/09 05:17 PM
03/06/09 05:17 PM
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New York City
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Sorry, L'echange, if I miss noticing that you had already posted the link.

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