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Candywoman, I addressed you respectfully. Here is my concern: Those of us who wish to work seriously can find ourselves shut out because of the reputation of adult students. If one general portrait is cited by enough teachers, it may become harder for us. I am concerned, but at no time did I attack you or your post. As a person of authority (teacher in such a forum) your posts have impact. Are you aware of just how seriously you are taken? What is written in forums has a much greater effect on people's lives (decision) than it should.

I had two purposes in participating: a) to learn how to present oneself to teachers, b) to help if possible even if only by asking questions.


What you say is very true, and it is an important point. Supposing you have a nasty gash on your toe, and I also have a nasty gash, but I've noticed there's a nail sticking out of the floor. I'll show you my gash, the nail, and maybe you have a hammer so we can prevent more injuries. In my eyes this thread is about problem solving. It should not be for venting or purposeless anecdotes. I hope not to have done so.

A small note about your opening line:
When I began teaching I was told to list sample observations (facts) rather than an abstract generalization. I have disciplined myself strictly to this and a thirty year habit is hard to overcome. "Johnny has picked up his pencil briefly twice in an hour, and wrote 2 1/2 words." rather than "Johnny is lazy." was the example given. In this way solutions can be found. My particular "Johnny" turned out to have ADD. Given facts, experts in other areas could problem-solve.

I believe, "in my experience/opinion" is a good idea when people are trying to solve a problem in scenarios such as the one here. The rule you cite is good for essay writing and academic work, but I was told not to use it in pedagogy. People in this thread believed you were stating an absolute, so your message was not received as intended.

IF the OP is a serious student who works well, and IF the teachers he encountered have drawn conclusions such as the ones you cited, then this may be a clue on why he was refused. And IF this is so, the same thing can happen to others. How we present ourselves and then follow through may be one solution. I do not believe my time was wasted frivolously here.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

KS

You are free to have opinions and if you want to make comments about all of YOUR adult students, I find information like that interesting and enlightening.

It's when you extrapolate YOUR experiences of YOUR adult students and apply that to ALL adults, as you did several times in this thread, that the offence occurs.

I'm glad the penny has finally dropped.

One final point - as you know nothing about me, my music or how much time I spend practicing, I would respectfully ask that you keep your suggestions about my practice time vs Piano World time to yourself.

Gerry...adult bashing on this thread? The only bashing I've observed is yours...defensiveness, accusations, judgements, and un-solicited advice on the technical aspects of communication, hurled towards others for having expressed their experiences, values and assertive decisions, based on their sincerity.

I can relate to the teachers who have made opinions regarding teaching adult students. I adore all of my students...with that said, adult students present different challenges, as a whole, to those who are of child and/or adolescent age. Each age group (since we are only talking about 'age') presents differing strengths, weaknesses, needs, and requirements in general...and there's nothing wrong with speaking in general when we are speaking to others who live on different continents, and in different cultures..it's a global form of interaction. Were you my colleague and friend living next door, I would speak in more specific terms...perhaps even name people you've heard mentioned before. But that is not the case with a global internet forum.

Gerry, with 23yrs of teaching experience, and some here have taught even longer, I will suggest that one can usually tend to form some generalisations. However, I have witnessed in my time on the forum, that the teachers here are astute enough to realise that there are exceptions and quite often, many, to every preconceived generalised 'rule', whether it be a positive or slightly negative one.

Accusing a teacher of being against 'humanitarian' equality is futile, as teaching, next to the medical and charity industries, is one of the most selfless, generous, and caring fields that exist...one driven on the principles of philanthropy, and not on prejudice or exclusion, and certainly not on material benefit.

However, like all philanthropists...doctors, charity workers, scientists, researchers etc., teachers may choose any demographic to work with that they see fit and appropriate, one where they feel they can do their best work based on their innate gifts, capabilties, and professional boundaries. And if a teacher does or doesn't choose to teach adults, children, or anyone...it is the best for everyone. For every teacher attempts to find the best platform on which to present their skills and heartfelt efforts...one in which their work will do the best service to others firstly, and then, in turn, to themselves.

All the best

lotuscrystal

edited

Lotuscrystal,

I have no issues with teachers teaching who they want to. Equally I have no issue with teachers making comments about the students they have taught.

However I reserve the right to be offended if I am lumped in a group labelled slow, difficult etc. just because of my age.

As I have said several times without a single reply to date, if I posted the same opinions about a group of people based on race, sex or creed then people would be offended. I fail to see why you cannot understand why the same offence is caused when the criteria to group people is age.

The KKK are entitled to their opinions as are the BNP (the British National Party) here in the UK. Most people however find their opinions offensive as they are clearly prejudiced against groups of people based on their colour.

In my 28 years as a performing musician I have met many teachers and many students. Some teachers share these views about adults, some have these views about children and some teachers treat each student as an individual, with individual strengths, weaknesses, needs and wants. In my opinion the best teachers I've met are the ones who treat their students as individuals.

Lotus, the problem involves extrapolating what you think someone is capable of based on a group portrait. It closes doors on the individual who may not be anything like that. If enough teachers exercise their demographic right then there is nowhere to go.

Secondly, there is the danger that we will be taught according to the common perception and fail to come anywhere near our potential. Certain things must be done to acquire proficiency, some of them arduous. If they are not given, we will not progress. For those with talent, they will "ride on talent" but without a foundation to support them - it's the worse for them because they will hear what is missing and remain bewildered.

Can you not see that there is a potential problem? In the least, we must be aware in order to deal with it. I would not have thought any of these things 5 years ago.

KS

Hear, hear!

To those who have made generalisations of the "adults are..." or "adult students do this" type:

If what you really mean is:
- Adults I have taught...
- Some adult students I know...
- Many adult students I have come across...

then for goodness sake, SAY THAT, instead of saying "adult students" this and "adult students" that and wondering why people think you're targeting them. It's not 1984, or being over-scrupulous, or anything else except clear communication. Say what you actually mean.

And I sincerely hope that any adult students who are reading this will not in return lump all teachers into a group and generalise that they are all prejudiced against adults.
I'm not, and I'm sorry that you've had to put up with this.

Yes, I concur, that every teacher should see a student as an individual case. And I believe that every teacher on this forum does just that.

May I remind you, Gerry, that this is a 'piano teacher' forum, and not a forum for students....And therefore, piano teachers will voice their uncensored opinions, in the faith of being understood and/or challenged by their colleagues, and not by students who have a need for validation or reassurance, as this isn't really a forum for those in that context. (may I suggest the 'Adult student' forum for you to express your grievances?)

So for you to analyse, assess, judge, and condemn the opinions expressed by teachers on this thread, that have been gracious, and generous enough to reply to the OP...to me...seems surreal, unneccessary, and offensive.

PS: I will not engage you any further, I have said my peace.

This has been discussed at least twice and the result was that though this is a forum designed for teachers, it is an open forum, with some teachers (not all, but some) saying they specifically welcome the input of students, the only proviso being that someone who is not a teacher should make this clear when answering a question asked of teachers.

Lotuscrystal,

If I have caused any offence then I apologise most sincerely. That was never my intention.

As for this being a Piano Teachers Forum, yes I am an Adult Student but also training as a Piano Teacher. I would like to think that New Teachers are as welcome here as Experienced Teachers.

edited

Lotuscrystal,

Participation is for two reasons: a) to learn by asking questions and exploring, so that our interaction in real life can become more effective, b) to help get at a problem together since all sides are involved, in case that seems necessary in a given situation. Perhaps this purpose has been misunderstood.

KS

+1

Different writing purposes mandate different writing styles. "In my opinion" may be generally unneeded or even inappropriate in academic papers, business writing and journalism, but it goes a very long way to grease the gears in public forums. Indeed, when it is not used, how does the reader distinguish between a mere opinion and an outright assertion of fact?

In this venue, it comes across as myopic and overbearing at best when opinions are stated as fact and personal experiences are extrapolated as having universal relevance. Why would one not choose to distinguish one's opinions lest they (along with one's intentions) be misinterpreted?

Steven

It really irritates me when posters totally remove what they have said from their posting. I think editing is one thing for clarity, or for spelling, or improved flow in the posting, or to enter more information. But, to totally remove, which I've seen many times from different posters, seems like a complete retreat of self protection.

If you said something and wrote it and pushed the button to reply, you need to stand by your words and not disappear.

You can always explain or retract what you have said in a continued post.

Mean what you say and say what you mean.

It makes me suspicious of being manipulated as our threads develop and we all know a thread can be twisted into disagreement and opposition easily depending who is posting with what attitude.

Look at this 14 page document posted in the Piano Teacher's Forum but calling us up on our comments made to our peers because our "opinions" don't jibe with theirs.

Generalizations? Not! Where we are speaking from is informed experiences, from personal experience in our piano studios, and from others across the world who relate about their experiences in their studios.

Any one individual who is offended by any "generalization" is being a censure to our opinions as we express them from the field of piano teachers.

"Hit and Run Driver" is a very descriptive label which defines an action and a criminal intent. "DUI" is another understood label. "Sex Offender" too. "Olympic Gold". "Miss America". "Jerry Lewis Telethon for Muscular Dystrophy". "LA Lakers". "Green River Killer". "TGIF - Fridays". "The Grand Canyon".

When someone asks you not to think of an elephant, you can't avoid thinking of the elephant, it comes to mind even though you mind not want to think of it. It pops up.

Does not a "picture" come to mind when you hear these words and labels as above?

For piano teachers, when someone says "Adult Beginner" a lot of information comes to mind as an associative thing based on our knowledge of adult beginners. There will be a mix of wonderful things and some not wonderful things - because that is the way the brain works like a data base. It will be our personal experience base and our world of music base.

The person who comes to us for a piano lesson is getting individualed attention, the best of our services, our support and patience and best intentions.

So, is the only thing Adult Students think about piano teachers: "You guys offend/irritate us with your generalizations of adult students and you shouldn't lump us all together, we are individuals."

Our peer discussions are not derogatory comments toward adult students. There is no reason for anyone to be offended.

Betty Patnude

I think we are mixing several ideas and confusing the issue.

One is that teachers have a stereotype of adult beginners. This doesn't offend me, because it is largely true. <grin> (of course it doesn't apply to me, just everybody else! <smiley>

Another is that teachers prefer to avoid difficult, high maintenance students, just as I try very hard to avoid high maintenance employees.

I think some people may have concluded the OP had difficulty finding a teacher because he was adult; others because he was perceived as potentially difficult.

I can certainly see why it is harder for an adult to find a good match to a teacher. I understand that much better after this thread.

I think some here would like to tell teachers that adult does not equal difficult. However, to a certain extent, we ARE difficult. Good teachers who care about their work like to succeed. And let's be honest, a minority of adults succeed. This is due to all sorts of reasons, and assigning reasons quickly leads to blame and hurt feelings. We need to deal with reality. A few of us are serious and understand what it takes. Actually I think the OP is almost certainly in the latter category, it's just that he appeared to bring some additional baggage.

I see a lot of adult beginner trombone players. Their horn has sat in the closet a few decades, they remember nostalgically how much fun they had, they drag it out, join a forum, ask advice, start practicing, take a lesson - and disappear. A minority stay with it and develop skill far beyond what they had in high school. As far as I can tell the difference between those who suceed and those who don't is simply who joins a community band.

Moral of the story: if an adult wants to sign up with a highly rated teacher, you have the best chance if you bring some evidence of two components: you are indeed serious, you are not high maintenance.

Of course, that's just my theory, could be wrong as always.

Betty, I removed a post. I did so because it added nothing. In that post I addressed Lotuscrystal, asking him to look at my prevoius post. It is not something you could have responded to. I am sorry to have caused confusion be deleting that post.

My motive for deleting the post is that I wanted to keep my presence to a minimum since I am a student. My request seemed pushy and I did not want it to stand.

I would have hoped to have earned more trust by now.

KS

+15 This is also what Gerry Armstrong, keystring, Steven, et al, are saying. A PUBLIC FORUM is open to A GENERAL AUDIENCE, and as currawong pointed out many teachers here have no problems with students posting in this forum. In any case, it is not possible to keep them from doing so, since it *is* a public forum.

Clear writing reflects clear thinking. It is particularly important in writing in a public forum. While it may annoy you no end that this isn't strictly a teacher-to-teacher forum, it isn't. I wouldn't begin to, as Gerry Armstrong points out, say something like "Women are difficult to teach because they aren't confident about themselves" or "Men are difficult to teach because they don't want to take directions"!!!!! It is no different than saying "Adults are difficult to teach because..." They are all broad generalizations which are not warranted no matter what the percentage of your individual students you think fit them. (And the ones I wrote about women and men are, IMNSHO, stereotypes.) The way we speak reflects the way we think, and, in my experience, the way we speak actually influences the way we think. Back in the 1970's women here in the U.S. began to insist that they not be spoken of as "girls" for just that reason. Not speaking/writing in such a way that you make it clear that it is your individual experience with/of most of your adult students (or even all of them) will, indeed, come across as asserting a blanket statement about all adults.

These particular writing/communication skills are needed by *all* posters, not just piano teachers or adult students (which may not be mutually exclusive categories). I'm with Gerry Armstrong, keystring, currawong, and Steven in asking for clearer communications (reflecting clearer thinking, to me).

Cathy

The fact that you do not understand how some of the comments made on this thread are perceived as derogatory or offensive to adult beginners speaks volumes about your attitude toward same.

The answer to answer your question, "is the only thing I think of teachers" is--No, that's NOT what I think of all or even most piano teachers. I appreciate greatly the evenhanded and thoughtful remarks of many of the teachers who post here. But it *is* what I think of a few teachers on this board who are vocal with their generalizations and who persist in stating such generalizations as facts.

Some positive, possibly valuable things came out of this thread and are in danger of getting lost. If something can be gained, surely that is where the focus should be:

We have the question of (any) adult student who wishes to pursue piano seriously - possibly not a complete beginner. It is clear that many teachers will hesitate to take a student of that age because of expectations. That expectation alone, regardless of behaviour, may shut the door in that student's face. It should be accepted as a fact that it may happen, so that we can deal with it. The teachers here do not seem to refute this.

What comes out of this is needing to know how to present ourselves. We may possibly need to reassure teachers or anticipate these concerns. We also must make doubly sure to follow up on what we promise. Some of the teacher feedback here has helped clarify how.

In my mind, the topic of this thread concerns the first period of time when a student tries to find a teacher, their meeting, and possibly the first lessons.

It would be great if anyone is helped by this thread, whether student or teacher, or if some insights have been gained. That's all I'm interested in. There is no point in venting feelings one way or the other.

I am assuming that this is a forum of professionals who do take such things seriously and do like to see good outcomes. If while someone is asking for help, the purpose of participating is simply to chat about personal frustrations among peers, then I have two questions: How can that help? Might it confuse the person who is asking for advice? This is only food for thought: it is your forum to run as you see fit. I'm a guest.

I have actually tried to stay out of the teacher forum, so I apologize for my presence in it.