Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum What am I doing so wrong?

Betty,

Defending your Adult Bashing by saying Teacher Bashing goes on too is a very poor excuse. As the old saying goes, two Wrongs don't make a Right.

As I said in an earlier post, if I made similar comments about Women, People from a particular Race or People from a particular Religion then I would understand if they were offended.

I fail to understand why you and others who have made similar sweeping generalisations cannot comprehend that making these statements about all "Adults" as a group offends us Adults.

I've seen some adult bashing on this forum. (and it's stung a couple of times, as I am one of those adults) But in this thread? I don't think so.

I think most of those who have seemed critical of the OP have felt he might be a difficult adult, not that all adults are difficult. If you're reading generalized adult bashing into that, I think you're projecting some internal attitudes and not really picking up what's being said. I thought the teachers here were pretty fair in their approach to adults. I can certainly understand why some would not want to work with them at all, though I still think the average adult is easier than the average child - and doesn't come with a problem parent!

True, we're all working with some very limited data - a couple of posts from someone we've never met. It may be that seeing him as potentially difficult is unjustified. But based on the little we have, it's not completely unreasonable.

And in a way, it's a positive sign. If there's something he is doing wrong - as his post title suggests - then there's something he can fix. If not, if he's completely innocent and the world is at fault, then it's never going to improve, he has no hope. I'd like to give him that hope.

One thing this thread has done is make me rethink how I look for my next teacher.

I wasn't refering to the OP's comments but various replies like:

"With a child, I can teach very intensively, but adults go at a slower pace. I feel they place obstacles in front of themselves and their pride gets in the way."

"Adults just don't seem to see the priviledge of learning from a capable teacher who will treat you like family and be supportive far beyond the call of duty."

"Adult students seem to demand that the learning go on to meet only their demands or interest and they treat what is primarily an "arts education" as only a recreational experience when it really asks so much more and delivers so much more to us than we are even aware of."

These are sweeping generalisations about Adults as a group that I vehemently disagree with. All adults are not like this at all and I take great offence at being categorised in this way simply because I'm an Adult.

There is no wrath. Only a perplexity that the attitudes expressed here seem so different than the attitudes of pianists, teachers and adult students I know in real life.

When I spoke of the Piano World Piano Teacher's Forum Piano Teacher I was describing a fictitious person that is made up of a conglomeration of attitudes I have read here from multiple persons. The fact that some teachers on the board might find this fictitious teacher and the attitudes I attributed to him/her offensive, says more about how teachers are coming across in their posts than anything else. I doubt people are as off-putting to their potential student/customer base in real life as some come across on this board.



You say it is rude of me to make the association between how one (or several) teacher(s) on this board posts, and all teachers participating on the forum...but you cannot see why adult students reading this find the above rude and offensive? Really? (I'm not being nasty I'm just perplexed...)

Betty, you can't have confidential conversations on a public forum. The whole world can read what you say!

I haven't time now for a detailed response (I have to go and teach one of my hard-working, serious, enthusiastic adult students) but I have to say I'm distressed (as I always am) when the conversation goes in this "them-and-us" way that it's going.

Teachers (not specifically Betty), if you don't want to teach adult students, then don't. You don't have to justify your choices with all this tosh about "adults are..." "adults don't..." Just don't teach them, and leave them to those of us who appreciate them.

BTW Tim I think you are right about this and meant to say so earlier. The best teachers I know (and know of) personally do not have websites. That's not to say "teachers with websites are not the best"...just to say, the teachers that I know, who I think would be pleased to meet and teach the OP, would not be found during a web search...

Though I wouldn't have thought to use the term "adult bashing" for what I've read in this particular thread, I've gotten the sense that adult students are generally considered problematic. The term "baggage" has been used, which tends to make me cringe. What's "baggage" but the cumulative consequences of life's experiences? If adult students have it, so do teachers and all adults who haven't spent their lives under a rock or in a coma.

Steven

I've withdrawn my question. Don't want the flames to go higher. Did somebody mention a bonfire a while back? Weeny roast for all? How about a masked ball so we can't tell which is the teacher and which is the student? We can all pretend to be the opposite and keep everyone guessing. Or even more dastardly, be who we are, confound the stereotypes and really cause confusion.

KS

And what about clavichord bashing? No one seems to mind that.

No clavichord bashing from me - I love my little fretted clavichord! Closest thing to actually playing the strings with your fingers.

Yes, yes, that's exactly it!

Sounds good to me

passé(e)? Offensive? Do wives not get old? Do they not hold to traditions that have no basis in science? At least traditionally? (it comes from a time when women had no involvement in science) You cannot be allowed to denude our language in such a 'cavalier' fashion. (is that derogatory to cavaliers?) And is there anything wrong with old wives tales? If you don't take them at face value they often contain more truth. The term itself says buckets about the cultural practices of previous generations. I miss 'old wives'. Those were the days! [/quote]

__________________________________
KbK, as you well know the term "old wife tale" is used to describe inaccuracies, fallacies, myths.. I join your interest in empirical knowledge and opinion based on years of experience, but that is not what this term refers to. As for "wives" not being involved in science back then, well neither were husbands, but I have never heard the term "old husbands' tale" bandied about.
I suggest we hold on to the valuable traditions of language not the bigoted ones. As for you missing old wives, what did you do to scare them away??

If only.

Nowadays you can't say ANYTHING in a public forum without twenty people picking it apart. That says a lot about our current, extraordinarily scrupulous society.

This is the REAL crux of the matter. Have you read 1984, by George Orwell? Folks, that's where you're headed.

We need to ALLOW others to state their opinions. And LISTEN more instead of getting so easily offended.

When everybody no matter who they are gets their say it is very much not 1984. Maybe Night of the Living Dead.

"You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts." That quotation is attributed to Daniel Patrick Moynihan.

I don't believe scrupulousness is a bad thing, and don't find the comparison with 1984 to be apposite.

I think that anyone who posts something publicly shouldn't be surprised if called upon to support it. Generally, in my experience, accusations of nitpicking are made by those who expect that uninformed opinions and sloppy facts should go unchallenged.

Steven

As I pointed out earlier, if I had said about Black people for example what you said about Adults as a group I would have been labelled a Racist.

It is staggering that you still think you are entitled to make these generalisations about a group of people in a public forum and then it's their fault if they are offended.

If you refrain from making offensive comments about groups of people in the first place then they won't be offended.

Candywoman,

I'm listening. What is it that you want to tell me? I'm an adult student. Let's start there.

KS

When you study writing at school, they tell you not to preface everything with, "In my opinion." This is because it is understood that when you speak it is your opinion. And in my opinion, all the things I've noticed about MY adult students are true. The fact that Gerry Armstrong wishes to take my experiences and find something to offend himself with is not my problem.

I have noticed that there are many people who have to relate everything to themselves. If I tell you I have a sore toe, you can list all the times you've bumped YOUR toe, or you can empathize with my pain. Very few people in conversation are able to do this. That's an example of really listening.

What I wish to say to Keystring and Gerry Armstrong is keep going at your own pace and enjoying music. The time you whittle away on this thread could be better spent practicing.