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Hi Jerry, welcome out of lurkdom! I'm sorry that your first efforts at starting a thread were met with such misunderstanding and (imo, undeserved) criticism. Please come join us at AB forum. You will find lots of support and encouragement there.

Candywoman, I'm not at all surprised by the turn this thread has taken, given similarly controversial threads on the topic of adult students that have occurred in the past. I'm sorry you have not had good luck with adult students. I can assure you that we are not all as you described.

Betty, please re-read Jerry's initial post carefully. You suggest that his overtures did not go well because he said "too much" about himself and didn't "realize there is a courtesy to first contacts." You went on to say that "The in depth comes at the interview...The teacher would want to verify the students strengths and background and lead lessons in the direction of his long term goals based on where he is at this moment. Advice and a path would be discussed." But that's exactly what Jerry did. In 3 of the 4 cases, he actually went to first meetings/lessons and did everything you suggested that he do and was still met with refusals.

And this thread would be several pages shorter if the entire (and completely irrelevant) debate about harpsichords and clavichords hadn't come up.

*sigh* Jerry, if you're still out there, you have received some excellent advice here despite the misunderstandings. I agree with the posters who have encouraged you to contact music faculty at local colleges to ask for recommendations. I disagree very strongly with those who are advising you to remain vague about your goals for lessons. You know what you want out of piano and piano lessons, and to ignore that is only performing a disservice to you and your future teacher.

Good luck. I am sure there is a teacher out there for you, and I hope you find the right one quickly.

[quote=Monica K.]

Betty, please re-read Jerry's initial post carefully. You suggest that his overtures did not go well because he said "too much" about himself and didn't "realize there is a courtesy to first contacts." You went on to say that "The in depth comes at the interview...The teacher would want to verify the students strengths and background and lead lessons in the direction of his long term goals based on where he is at this moment. Advice and a path would be discussed." But that's exactly what Jerry did. In 3 of the 4 cases, he actually went to first meetings/lessons and did everything you suggested that he do and was still met with refusals.

Monica and others,

Before I went on the tack I did about Jerry saying too much, too soon, and in a "desperate" and "demanding" voice, I copied his posts to MSW and looked at the verbs and descriptive words of what he said about his experience. I found a lot of negative tone of voice there and some sarcasm, really I did. It is clear that there is an undercurrent going on with the posters approach and attitude. I'm sorry if no one else sees that happening, to me there is nothing positive said in his explanation that would have attracted the interest of a teacher who is highly envolved in teaching Baroque ornaments, or just paving the way for serious classical study.

There is a level of preparation needed by an adult student wanting to go in this direction of study, and I think perhaps the teachers felt he was not seriously prepared for that direction at this time.

I feel it would have been better not to "dump" so much on the teacher at the first visit - what he said is part of his mind set and problem oriented and criticism oriented and he doesn't sound like he would be a happy camper. The attitude and focus he has taken in seeking lessons and what he has said about himself as a developing musician is a potential warning system.

It's the tone of voice and the demand being made that is a bit of a turnoff. The teacher would like to do the evaluating of where he is and what he needs.

Interviews work best when they allow the student and the teacher to enter into the collaborating arena of study, without all the preface, without baggage. At an interview, which is an invitation begin extended to consider working together, and it is a decision being made by both people, it's important to extend your best foot forward.

Most teachers have a profile of the time of student they are looking for and the skills or mindset they like to see. Experienced teachers also recognize the situation when there are signs that the student is going to be difficult to work with.

On any given day, we make choices and decisions to the best of our abilities.

It is my opinion that the OP needs to think of his impact on someone listening to his verbage about himself, and leave the diagnosing and concerns for the teacher to direct his/her attention to as they are working together at the piano. All things can not happen at once, it's a direction and a path.

I think what I objected to was the insistance of the poster that he had a good mentor, yet he blows himself out of the water with all the "stabs" he makes at himself about having problems and not understanding some things.

An accomplished, qualified for teaching to perfection (use that academically) is going to want to be the diagnostician since the interviewee is relying on various and sundry who have made comments about his playing. If he knows these things about himself and agrees, they he has been told there are problematic things in his playing, and he needs to address that with an exceptional teacher first by placing himself in study with them.

If you are not the teachers peer, you are second guessing what is needed and creating a "box" to fight your way out of....start afresh with a new teacher. Listen attentively with an open mind to what they have to say to you. That is where the new helpful information will come from, outside of your experiences to date.

And, finally, one visit with a teacher does not establish enough of a picture of your future together, purchase a packet of lessons prepaid to show your committment to work with the teacher for a certain period of time.

You want to convey that you are here to learn what they have to teach you. It would be nice to hear that you both are looking forward to this "exploratory" time. It would be a joy to hear that you are a good "fit" together.

I wanted to voice my opinion one more time in the hopes that it would be understood as a valid point of view coming from an experienced teacher.

The objective of inquiries and interviews is to connect together not to disqualify, although it is perfectly legitimate to say "No" if your instincts and information gained have alerted you to things you cannot or choose not to accept in the teaching environment you are considering entering. The teacher does the same thing, but I think more quietly, cordially and objectively.

When four teachers have said "No", there has to be a reason, doesn't there? Sounds to me like there is a lesson in approach to be learned.

I certainly want for this man to get what he is looking for and continue on his music path. To do that, any obstacle he is creating that is getting in his way needs to be removed from the equation.

Betty Patnude

Betty, the OP gave too much information so that is intention did not come across. That combined with common expectations teachers have of adult students is probably where the problem lay. Almost every PW teacher has misunderstood his goals because of this surplus of information. It is that simple.

We students must be aware of the negative experiences and expectations that teachers have. It's not what we say, but how it can be interpreted and what meaning is given to it. There are plenty of examples here. The important thing is not to assign blame, but find the way around it.

My own solution involves asking how to present oneself and that has been addressed already.


Yes, and depending on what that reason is, there may be a lesson to be learned. 1. Is it because the OP gave too much information? 2. Is it because he approached the wrong people? 3. Is it because prejudgement exists in regards to students so that someone will not be given a chance, and his words will be interpreted according to it?

If it is the latter - and if potentially good students are being locked out and being forced into lesser circumstances - is no teacher concerned?

Betty, communication is my field. Please believe me that the sort of analysis of verbs etc. that you have carried out does not work in written communication. If you analyzed the third statement, of course there were agitated verbs. But why? What was going on before that? What is the message? What do the paragraphs say? What kind of background makes the person present his information in a particular manner? What kind of background makes the reader (you) read this information a certain way? For example, if teachers are accustomed to students demanding repertoire then the mention of repertoire will be read in that light.

Communication begins by clarifying what is muddy - not by analyzing another's psychology (and likely getting it wrong). I do that as a teacher as well as as a linguist. "Could you clarify?" "What do you mean by that?" "I am understanding A - is this what you mean?" "It seems you want X - do you?"

Far too often in these forums people respond without bothering to find out more. People who are not in the field don't know how to express themselves the conventional way. You, who are the professionals, must guide the conversation. There is no other way. What appears to be said may not be the real picture. What you understand may be due to your experience with someone else. Clarification must be sought. And some thought should be behind the answer because some students take you dead serious, more than you may know.

Betty tried to quantify some reasons for a somewhat negative reaction. (My impression, anyway, I hate to speak for her.) You say that quantification doesn't work for you, but it doesn't dispel the fact of the negative perception.

I also had a perception that the OP presented himself as a potentially difficult student. I haven't tried to analyze grammatical construction, just noted my perception.

Several posters are criticizing those with that reaction, insisting we should focus on what his stated goals are instead. Well, I'm not sure we CAN get past that. Clearly four piano teachers (and an unknown number of organ teachers) did not get past that. So it very likely is a problem, quite separate from knowing how to differentiate ornaments between Bach and Buxtehude.

Therefore I would suggest the correct focus IS on that perception and not on the musical goals at this point.

It could be that all of us are mistaken, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the OP's presentation, just pure bad luck has led to four successive rejections, and the next teacher will jump at the chance.

Or it could be that presentation is part of the problem, and he needs to welcome some uncomfortable feedback in the hopes of correcting it. How others perceive us is exceedingly difficult to determine without some often painful candid input from them.

I believe that three things are a problem:
a) presentation (too many facts) b) perception c) pre-existing expectations by teachers, and this last is very real.

The OP's first presentation cannot possibly be seen as being negative. If it is, kindly point it out. By the third he was steamed so yeah, it was negative.

I have bothered to communicate privately with the OP so I do know the story. Did anyone else bother to find out more?

I would like to point out one thing: Some of us only know our own experiences before coming to PW. I was unaware of any of what is commonly described. We were expected to practise 3 hours daily, I passed my first exam "with distinction" at four months, I was told the boy ahead of me had taken two years because adults are expected to progress faster (!) and to higher standards. The idea of changing lesson times or not practising, or not doing what is assigned as assigned was an amazing one.

If you come from my kind of world, then teacher responses don't make sense until you know what their experience and expectation is. We cannot help extrapolating due to what we know.

I will say again that teachers not wanting to take on adult students because of what they expect is a reality. Such an attitude exists outside of a student's control. Teachers may be ready to take us on in a non-serious capacity, but when it gets serious they may simply say no due to who we are. Does anyone deny that this exists?

What do we do about this? Personally, I would go back to those three teachers and ask them to be totally honest with me and not spare my feelings. Depending on what I heard, I might ask for a trial period, and ask exactly what they expected of me.

Again, knowing that there is a real hesitancy to take on an adult student, with some grounds maybe for it, I might ask the former teacher, or the organists, to help me. They may know who would be the most likely teacher, and also be able to reassure that teacher if they have worked with me. That way I'm not just some student coming off the street at an unlikely age.

I also would not peruse web-sites. I might talk to the organ guild, ask my former teacher whom I should contact, and possibly the American chapter of the RCM because I know the kinds of standards the RCM upholds. This is what I did for both myself and my son. Web-sites can promise anything.

Knowing what teachers have experienced and expect also helps us know how to present ourselves. I may be very enthusiastic about this or that thing, but I will stifle myself until I know this teacher well, because my enthusiasm may send the wrong message to a teacher who is already hesitant and cautious.

KS

I wish the OP well, hope he finds what he's looking for.

I agree with your suggestion of getting a recommendation from his former teacher - that would probably go far to quell some very natural fears.

I doubt I'd ask those earlier teachers to be honest. There's only risk in it for them.

Hey KS,
I thought the new forum edition came with limits to 2 paragraphs per response.. Your input is often thoughtful but logorrhea is not conducive to focused reading.. No offense intended. But if your responses were shorter, more people would read them, me included..
Premises of writing: Clarity, Brevity, Simplicity (there is one more, I forget what)

So be it where the shoe falls, Keystring.

Teachers have to protect themselves from the wrong situations - and we learn to do that as an instinct of self protection.

Piano teaching is a wonderful thing and we thrive on doing our best work when there is a capable and interested student on the bench who applies themselves to the endeavor.

It is not easy to teach or work with students who present distraction from our attention to the music which is the reason we are together in the first place.

The "psychology" that is unwanted here, is simply observation of what is said, how it is said, and why it is said. The focus and mindset the student has is evident in the interview. The more one is disturbed about something,the more acting out and frustration becomes evident. These, I have learned, or interpreted for myself, are warning signs of difficulty areas that pre-exist and enter today's interview.

We don't have to clarify and regurgitate about such things, these are latent behaviors in the prospective student, and some of us recognize that we don't want to be involved in such things.

I've noticed in this world that hairdressers, waitresses, and piano teachers all have the burden of people unloading on them in psychological ways and expecting us to take up on the subject because it is of importance and interest to the client.

People ask us to participate in conversations we would never want to have, but we are their captive audience while they are in our presence.

There is a different agenda going on with them then the principle reason we would participate, which would be to teach music.

Why does all the "muddy water" come up? Because it lives within them and is looking for opportunity to present itself.

Muddy water can be an impossible obstacle.

It does not fit in my job description.

Rational and objective is a good stance to have if you are going to be a piano teacher in today's society.

Problematic people undermine our willingness and good intentions and they drain our energy and tolerance if we aren't careful.

"Then you say, Keystring, "Communication begins by clarifying what is muddy - not by analyzing another's psychology (and likely getting it wrong). I do that as a teacher as well as as a linguist. "Could you clarify?" "What do you mean by that?" "I am understanding A - is this what you mean?" "It seems you want X - do you?"

That is exactly the situation I would like to avoid having! Conversation needs to role out comfortably and in a meaningful, natural way. Further conversation leads to understanding and clarification. Things need to evolve over time. I find intense questioning to be artificial and penetrating. Someone keeps pecking until they get the answer they want. Constant questioning puts control on the questioners side, rather than a meeting of the minds, and a gentler approach to communication and knowledge. Pecking is insistant and does not create flow between two people.

Dr. Phil says that we teach people how to treat us. I think it's to our advantage to nip sad situations from happening in the first place by not playing into the game of those who seek something from us besides piano lessons.

Some people are insatiable for attention for all the wrong reasons. Focus on the music making and the productivity between the student and the teacher.

Present a willing and interested student to us and we are willing, interested and ready, too. It should be a straight shot into understanding the dynamics of the potential relationship. Our first impressions do count, they open doors, or they close doors.

Diatribe: a thunderous verbal attack likened to ranting.

I hesitate to say anything more as there is a chasm between the perception of that happens at interviews for piano lessons.

I accept piano students easily until there is a warning sign given out by the interviewee. Too many of those and it's a "No Go". Incredible thought goes into my interviewing process. What seems like a snap decision to the reader here is because this experience of mine is 38 years old in a 65 year old body and brain.

I've participated in hundreds of interviews, and the average student will have had a few interviews of their history. I can't ignore what I have observed and the conclusions I come to, they are very relevant to me.

I see nothing wrong in having a student take me dead seriously. This is a very serious enterprize we will be working on together. If you can't count on me being trustworthy, you shouldn't count on me at all.

My last "hit" here is that I must be doing something right because once in piano study with me, so many have made it a long term - 5 to 7 years.

Still standing!

Betty

[In response to Tim's post - though anyone else can partake of the smile and smile back if they so wish]

A small note on conversation. It happens in real time, moment to moment. Written communication consists of gigantic paragraphs, with no chance to adjust. The misunderstanding can grow and grow. It does not evolve like spoken words, with nods, smiles, shrugs, pauses. Beware of the written word.

We are not on the same page. First - the questioner in my idea is not the student, but the teacher. For example, the OP comes along, and he's talking about all sorts of things: piano, organ, Bach, Buxtehude, trills, skills that need revamping. Do you not want to draw out what it is that he actually wants? People here thought he wanted ornaments and fancy teachers. How can that go anywhere?

Clients phone me and tell me all kinds of information because they don't know what I need to know. So then I guide them, and the conversation takes on a different tack.

Is that not what you do?

I am not talking about discussing emotional issues, or whatever it is that you seem to be referring to. I am talking about a professional taking control, and asking the right questions in order to clarify what's going on.

I was also talking about written Internet (forum) communication which has its own traps: not interviews.

KS

This is in reply to keystring first of two postings. Her 2nd posting came in while I was posting here so there is a gap in sequence. I have not read the 2nd posting yet.

Exactly! Real time is full of clues and the opportunity to verify and repeat things as understood.

The written word is entrapment of the worse kind in that once misunderstood or questioned, it takes on a life of it's own, with threads like cancer.

Nods, smiles, shrugs, pauses are warm and conveying. Every one happy?

On the opposite side the stomps, wails, anxiety, frustrations are clearly seen for what they are, the potential for verbal or physical abuse.

Perhaps I do read more negatively than other people do. This would creates an immediate concern of whether this could turn into potentially verbal or physical abuse or dysfunctional traits surfacing. A transfer of possible gestures would now accompany the written word as I have a vivid imagination and some acting and interpreting from story form ability. I take on characterization easily, and I also entrain with certain people in their thoughts and actions. I think these are natural abilities I was born with, but I have certainly developed them while teaching since teaching requires me to get inside the students head to understand his thinking process and interject ideas and information in ways that he understands and can use. In other words duplicating his learning style. I am saying, I may duplicate their speaking/writing style too, by "osmosis".

I think this ability is as faulty as it might be enlightening. Obviously its a consideration to one's perspective in the first place. I'm ingrained with doing this - I'm coming to realize.

The question would be rather it's valid or invalid, or both.

I do think of myself as an intuitive person.

Interesting turn of events here!

We can learn from probing questionable things, I think. And, I have a new awareness surfacing from participating in this topic.

Betty

It's been suggested that the OP made a bad choice of words with this thread title, and I agree. By even suggesting that he may have been doing something "wrong" in a way that was probably rhetorical or self-deprecating, he inadvertently set himself up for reactions based on that presumption; inferences have been made (wrongly, IMO) about a supposed negativity that would justify that conclusion.

I gather that teachers in general prefer students whom they can teach what they want in the way they want. I'm not saying that's wrong, but it's a limitation that should be recognized as surely most suited to the naïveté, malleability and undemanding nature of a child. Is there typically a concern about a teacher and child student being a "good match" unless the parents have issues of their own?

An adult student—certainly one who is not a beginner and who has specific needs and targeted goals—just isn't going to be compatible with any teacher (or even most teachers). The narrower the focus of the adult student's requirements is, the harder it will be to locate a suitable teacher who has the specialized knowledge, teaching style and personality that the student seeks.

I agree that the OP needs to cast a much wider net. I think that teachers who would consider such an adult student too needy or revealing too much information about what he is seeking are obviously not the right ones. Far from doing anything "wrong," the OP's strategy seems to be a very reasonable and necessary filtering mechanism.

I found absolutely nothing negative in the OP's initial presentation. He has an atypical background and unusual goals that would inappropriately challenge most teachers; the fact that his requirements are specific challenges the comfort zone of teachers who are accustomed to, and happy with, the unquestioning nature of children and novices.

I'm sorry the OP didn't find much support here. It might be for the best if he already left the building after all, though I admit it's been a real eye-opener for me—and made me glad that I'm not looking for a teacher.

Steven

Glad you (and I!) are not looking for a teacher on this board, anyway.

The OP strikes me as someone that a lot of the teachers I know would be thrilled to have...fairly serious, into serious music, willing to work, high standards, knowledgeable.

How that comes across as "needy" and "demanding" and "undesireable" I am at a loss to explain. In fact, for the right teacher I could imagine a friendship/mentorship developing. Comparing different recordings...going to recitals together.

I always think of threads like this when teachers start complaining about how they are losing students and income.

Honestly, I have to say that when I come up with a mental picture of the PW Teacher's Forum Piano Teacher...it's of a person who thinks the world owes them a living of teaching only a certain type of student who is and does and thinks exactly how the teacher wants. Nice work of you can get it. Wish I could say, "I want to get paid to do only and exactly this with no difficulties or variations."

I mean, no offense but I read Betty's posts about students who are verbally and physically abusive and I wonder, what on earth kind of piano studio is this in which this is a serious and ongoing problem to the point where you must have the "I have to protect myself" attitude toward potential students???

I can understand your opinion, nicely state, quite well, Steven,

Part of the teachers confidence is that the lesson structure will meet the needs of the adult student because she is not going to neglect the needs of the students, nor the back ground of the student. All are contributing factors.

When you meet up with an accomplished very capable teacher you don't have to ask or explain about such things or make an issue of things you are concerned about because at the level at which you are seeking a teacher, those are the capacities you would expect them to have.

Ask about the teachers skill sets, their highest level of instruction they give, ask about their performance history, special interests. There is lots available about teachers on web sites these days.

I'm sorry that I am creating a disadvantage toward myself by being difficult or opinionated, it's a risk I'm taking. It's just that we need to understand each other better as to what works and what does not work. It bothers me when I read about situations that did not have to have the outcome they had.

It's a two way street....compatable works.....obtuse does not.

Betty

Hey guys, I'll teach ya! And you won't even have ta buy a clavichord (or harpsichord).

I mean, no offense but I read Betty's posts about students who are verbally and physically abusive and I wonder, what on earth kind of piano studio is this in which this is a serious and ongoing problem to the point where you must have the "I have to protect myself" attitude toward potential students???
_________________________]

That's not quite what I said: I meant that we have to protect our selves and our other students from negative and difficult situations and this is possible why I look closely at behavior and attitudes at the interview.

I don't have difficult students or families in my studio - I am proud of the committment of my students and their helpfulness in creating a studio that is comfortable and friendly and productive.

My policy says I do not teach in chaos and confusion, which many studios these days don't select their clientele, they accept anyone who knocks and pays the bills.

Adults just don't seem to see the priviledge of learning from a capable teacher who will treat you like family and be supportive far beyond the call of duty. Not only do you get a good music education, you sometimes get a friend for life.

Adult students seem to demand that the learning go on to meet only their demands or interest and they treat what is primarily an "arts education" as only a recreational experience when it really asks so much more and delivers so much more to us than we are even aware of.

Sometimes obtuse and cross purposes don't help develop one's musicianship at all. That the teacher might teach with purpose and foresight doesn't seem to be understood.

There must be a heck of a lot of quack teachers that generated this kind of accessibility to piano lessons with no desire to educate the public about what music education is because they simply don't know the component parts of preparation for a musical life. Today anything goes and it's called teaching.

The biggest thing that piano teaching is, is the organization of the mind and body to approach learning and a productive outcome in music study. Organizing thoughts and actions to coordinate with a semblance of expertise.

Is there a light at the end of the tunnel?

Yet more Adult bashing. Will it ever end???

I guess the only thing I can say is that you and I know a wildly different bunch of adult pianists and piano students. Not only am I one, myself, but I am a member of a piano club in the metro area.

I am Very Very Very aware of what a privilege it is to have a good teacher. More aware than most because my first 6 years of lessons as a kid were wasted at best and damaging at worst. And I don't consider myself, my attitudes or my experiences to be the least bit unusual among the adults I know.

In fact, that is why I insist on having a teacher with at least a Master's in piano, and I recommend it to others (kids and adults alike).

There are times when my lessons have to be rescheduled because of me (my work, my illness) but no more often than they have to be rescheduled because of my teacher's rehearsal and performance (and life) schedule.

Comment made:Glad you (and I!) are not looking for a teacher on this board, anyway."

It's too bad that all teachers participating in the forum are going to receive your wrath because of my postings.

It's rather rude to make that association.

No one really knows our capacity as individual teachers until they have spent some time with us and listened to our music and our teaching ideas.

I too admire those with accomplished degrees in their field of music, and I have certainly had that in my criteria of whom I have studied with throughout my life.

That some teachers don't have that certification on paper does not mean they are lacking. Kreisler has addressed that several times in his posting, and he is at the college faculty level of teaching. He also says, there are people holding credentials who are not at their forte in teaching.

When it comes to "adult bashing", I would like to call attention to the teacher bashing that goes on constantly. In the piano teachers forum there is so little participation these days, we are very much outnumbered by adult beginners and pianists and technicians.

I think receiving teacher bashing has been a contributing factor as well as the obvious problem that things said confidentially to other teachers as peers are pick on and picked apart by posters outside of the designation teachers.

I've been on the defensive the entire time of this topic, and it is not a comfortable place to be. One might throw up their hands in exasperation, but my teaching philosophy and my value judgments and the way I make them make sense to me and I stand by them.

People get involved with me by their choice, I involve myself with them through my choice making. Sometimes it's a wonderfully compatible situation, sometimes it turns out not to have been.

We don't just fall into good situations, we create them.