Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum What am I doing so wrong?

It was merely a suggestion early on. This thread has morphed because you, the OP and especially Lyce can't tell the difference between a harpsichord, a clavichord and a piano - 'wimpy', indeed.

This is Jerry's second post. Please point out where he appears riled.


I believe that "information overload" might have been a problem leading to some strange responses by teachers, and the problem may also include not taking the time to carefully read and analyze what was written before responding.

So it's his third post. This isn't riled?

The point I was making is carefulness of reading. Yes, it's riled. But has anyone tried to figure out why, after two polite calm posts, we get to "riled"? I found a number of the posts prior to that one upsetting but chose to be silent. Some serious miscommunication was going on, probably due in part from "information overload". The OP wanted to correct his playing and acquire the needed skills, which is exactly what we should be doing. He was being addressed as having a variety of attitudes, wishes, and backgrounds, missing the point, and some of the extrapolations could be seen as insulting. If you do not know what teachers encounter and therefore expect and read into a student's statement, it could be quite upsetting. I chose not to write anything, but I was also bothered.

Beavis and Buthead can easily be found - not your input btw - that's the one where we're supposed to say "I don't know what the heck I am doing" and then passively wait to be "surprised". I swallowed a fair bit of sarcasm on that one, and still do.

There is a fair bit of miscommunication between what the OP intends, and what was heard. I.e. he has been under guidance, has taken serous lessons, is following what he was told, and is aiming to get ordinary proficiency under his belt. He was addressed by some as a newb trying for unrealistic lofty goals and creating an agenda of his own making which he would ram down teachers' throats, et simile.

You have left out a fair chunk of that post which is probably a lot more pertinent.

Perhaps we can just see what can be learned from this thread.

KS

This was your first contribution to this thread.

You 'suggest' that Jerry look for a harpsichord teacher or buy a clavichord!

Which should he do? Who exactly is getting these mixed up?

Let's say for instance, that had the OP left out the 4 phone call part and the "what am I doing wrong" he might have received some straight forward, helpful suggestions from the majority of responses.

Teachers recognize people with goals and ambition and good preparation for the future when they meet and hear them play. It would be easy for a qualified teacher, one with the experience that the OP is looking for, not just any neighborhood teacher or one in business downtown, but one with performance degree or probably a master degree in teaching music. Being accurate and historical in the Baroque and organ is what he is looking for - this is a speciality area of teaching and the teaching list would be academic, in my opinion.

Perhaps he might try the community music school of a college or university where the public seeks piano lessons at a classical level.

I really had the opinion that it was the teachers being criticized for passing him over and his not being able to make progress in his teacher search. I asked myself who would that be? And, offered some revealing things that go on with piano teacher inquiries from people who say too much about themselves and don't realize there is a courtesy to first contacts.

The in depth comes at the interview, or during the getting acquainted period of piano lessons together. The teacher would want to verify the students strengths and background and lead lessons in the direction of his long term goals based on where he is at this moment. Advice and a path would be discussed.

I strongly suspect that this turned out to be a wayward inquiry, the odds that four refusals of accepting the student did not have good reasons behind it from the teachers prospective. It could also be that these teachers dismissed themselves as candidates because they could not deliver on the "requirements" the adult student was looking for.

I wonder if the cost or special arrangements needed were a factor in the disconnect. If so, that is too bad.

For those who feel the student, who is posting here for the first time is misunderstood or being seen in bad light, the only thing that I can say toward making amends is that communication is a two way street, and that it is best done in person, and there is no rush to deliver all the information in half of an hour to the teacher. Things about each other are usually learned in discovery and collaboration. And, one teacher might not be able to satisfy all of his interests and sense of goals in the time frame he wants, or might deliver on some of the goals, but not all.

The introductory question might be: I am looking for my next teacher and I'd like to talk to you about my goals. How do we go about discussing this?

This begins the conversation at a safe pace and clues the teachers that this is a serious inquiry, with specific goals. The listening to each other begins.

Does this help?

The extraneous information in the topic was way too much information, and a problem at that, with which our conversation here at Piano World started.

Since this is posted in the piano teachers forum, it is likely to get the response that comes from experienced piano teachers. Some of the things we have experienced as teachers from difficult students or parents or adult students can be right up there with verbal abuse of the teachers. In many ways, the original explanation had that possibility.

When an adult student joins this conversation with their understanding of how they think teachers should treat them, they are surprized that we are not captivated by their "baggage" and "situations" because they are an important part of the inquirees history. Once we hear some of these things that adults bring up that are problematic, we can get quite turned off by it, because we should not have to solve the problems of the last teacher and this student. To me, it doesn't enter the situation, this is a new situation. If any baggage is coming into our new situation, it is from the student.

We need to start anew, fresh, open minded, trusting, respecting, creating a difference. The minute I get all the gory details from the horse's mouth, it is the beginning of recognition that this is not going to work - because of the baggage - and the long explanations of what came before.

As said previously, psychology is not part of the services I could offer, however empathy would certainly exist once I had discovered on my own exactly what this pianist can do at the piano. Everything eventually comes out as evidence when we meet at the piano keyboard...I will hear the real problems by listening to his music, and the real accomplishments too, and I'll either know I can be of help to him, of I can't.

Throughout this experience the goal is to be considerate and cordial to each other. The minute that goes astray, even inadvertently, we have to look at our needs as teachers as much as he wants us to look at his needs.

Piano teaching is all about teaching piano, that's what most of us do. It's exciting to get a new, enthusiastic, promising student!

Betty, one of my reasons for getting involved in this thread is in order to learn from it. I do believe that "information overload" was a primary problem. The information must be brief, pertinent, and organized. The chain of misinformation has not stopped yet. It highlights the problem - please permit me to correct the impression:

This is not what he is looking for. He wants to get the essential skills of piano playing after which he will work with specialty organ teachers who are waiting for him to get these skills. They will give him these things at a later time.

The very fact that this is not coming across highlights a possible source of the problem. The information is there, but it's nestled in other information which is secondary but catches the eye.

As students we must realize that it is necessary to keep it simple and to the point because teachers are not mind readers, try as they might to acquire that skill.

The frustration has come as the OP was trying to transmit one intention, but teachers were responding to another.

I hope that I am not venturing into a hornet's nest if I suggest that teachers may also carry the "baggage" of negative experiences with adult students, and are therefore cautious and expecting similar "common problems". If we as adults understand that, then we can make certain not to send out the wrong signals and be alert for signs that this is going on. This is definitely a reality and it's putting on blinkers to pretend it doesn't exist.

KS

Being accurate and historical in the Baroque and organ is what he is looking for is his ultimate goal, is it not? I posted it because that is the hopeful end accomplishment of his musical productivity at this time. The "Dream!"

His Baroque education would work on either piano or organ, with applied technique and performance requirements. There is potential for interest in Early Music Society and other early music instruments, too. This could be an academic or social process for enjoyment.

The high end academic and specialized study come long after his basic foundation is complete.

His path has great appeal to someone who wants to be a a well trained musician in a specialized area of instruction.

He should list his stated best outcome and work backwards from that to list the path he needs to take to complete his journey.

The journey is one thing, the destination is another.

All we have is the present moment to act upon with our best attitudes and our good intentions. Principled effort and organized time management enter into it too.

Betty

Yes Betty, that is indeed his ultimate goal. The point of confusion is that the first goal is basic proficiency on the piano, and teachers were getting confused with the ultimate goal. Some of us come in wanting the final outcome first, as I have read, and this is the expectation that was seen by some teachers.

This thread began with the question of what was going wrong in the quest to find a teacher, and I think this is part of what might have been going wrong. No teacher would be turned off by a student who wants to get basic skills. They would be turned off if the student seemed to want to specialize immediately. How do we send out the right message, and understand that message, in order to start off on the right foot.

It has been informative.

KS

Most clavichord teachers are harpsichordists as you can't earn a living playing/teaching clavichord - it's hard enough on the harpsichord.

One more comment. This has been alluded to by several, but not spelled out.

The OP mentioned his strategy was to find teachers on the web and set up interviews.

In a very traditional field, what percentage do you think advertise on the web? Or are even computer literate? I know everybody here is, at least enough to get on a forum. But that's a small portion of the teachers out there. And how many of you have your own web sites?

I'm thinking he's not fishing in a big enough pond.

Thank you for your note, Morodiene.

It is my view that a student should be welcome to bring anything to a lesson and ask for technical help on it. A teacher should be able to look at the piece and 1) see immediately what the possible technical challenges might be and how to solve them (not all students have the same problems) and/or 2) observe the student's playing and be able to show him/her what he is doing wrong. This does not require having played the piece one's self. Of course, familiarity with a piece can add depth to interpretation. But to a trained musician, style and the explication of ornaments is second nature. (I recommend Howard Ferguson's Keyboard Interpretation.) And yes a piano teacher should actually play the piano, but playing is different from performing which is different from teaching. (I've known many fine performers who really didn't know how they did it and couldn't tell someone else how to do it. And I've known fine teachers who weren't much good at performing---and a few who could do both.)

NeilOS
May I offer an unsollicited comment regarding your website. The very first sentence is very off-putting and quite passé(e)!
The term "old wife tale" is offensive to many women today and certainly does not belong on a site that presumes to appeal to students of both genders.
I am certain you did not mean to offend but the oversight does not fit well with the otherwise very professional presentation of your credentials and methods.
Best

Wow, I'm totally surprised how long this thread has dragged on. When I wrote that comment, "Have mercy on me, I don't know what the heck I'm doing," I was splitting down the sides laughing. It was meant as a bit of a joke for all of us. If you read my post, it was in conjunction with my thought that you learn most when you don't have too many preconceptions. It wasn't meant as direct advice for only Jerry. But let's face it, we can all use a little humility when we go to lessons. I still go for lessons and I try not to set any expectations for my teachers. So that's where I'm coming from.

I can see now that my comment about not wanting to teach adults combined with my sense of humor resulted in a crazy combination. Sorry Amateur Jerry.

Anyways, the reason I don't want to teach adults is because often they switch the schedule around too much. They often don't practice much and they need enormous amounts of encouragement. With a child, I can teach very intensively, but adults go at a slower pace. I feel they place obstacles in front of themselves and their pride gets in the way. Teaching children is my personal preference. No biggee.

Now you've gone and done it!

passé(e)? Offensive? Do wives not get old? Do they not hold to traditions that have no basis in science? At least traditionally? (it comes from a time when women had no involvement in science) You cannot be allowed to denude our language in such a 'cavalier' fashion. (is that derogatory to cavaliers?) And is there anything wrong with old wives tales? If you don't take them at face value they often contain more truth. The term itself says buckets about the cultural practices of previous generations. I miss 'old wives'. Those were the days!

More adult bashing and lumping all adults together in to one group and all children in to another.

It gets a bit boring reading the comments of people who fail to realise the most basic of all facts about human beings i.e. we are ALL individuals. Children, adults, men, women, however else you want to group us together. We are all different and individual.

It's staggering how many comments I've read about how one thing applies to all children while the opposite applies to all adults. Absolute NONSENSE!!

If I said the same thing about a group of people based on their sex, their race or their religion I'd be branded a bigot and rightly so.

Candywoman, I appreciate your use of the word "often".

In regards to your joke: The OP's intention did not come across well. He wished to acquire keyboard proficiency as instructed, and since he had already worked with a demanding piano teacher previously he did know how to work properly as a student. However, he wrote so many extra things that some teachers saw a shopping list --- the preconceptions that you mention. --- To those of us who had caught on to the actual goals and attitude, your joke seemed puzzling and insulting.


May I ask about this? First of all, you will let your teachers know that you are already a teacher and musician, am I right? You would not just ask for lessons and leave the teacher guessing that you are an adult novice. Therefore from the onset this teacher will have expectations of you, and teach you accordingly.

But when you approach a teacher for lessons at this stage, do you simply phone up, say you're a piano teacher yourself, want to take lessons, and leave it at that? Do you have particular things you would like to address which is the reason for lessons, and do you state that? What kinds of things are stated? Do you discuss goals with the teacher?

These are the kinds of concerns that are raised in this thread. In a sense I think it is easier to be an absolute beginner than to come in mid-stream such as the OP has tried to do.

KS

We are all children, if you ask me.

So, has anyone worked out if 'Elvis' (amatuer Jerry) has in fact left the building? My thoughts are, if he has left the building, he'd be certain to feel ambivalent about returning. lol

There are so many teachers here uncharacteristically fired up, that it's time to have a barbecue! Pass me the sausages to throw on the barbie, before someone faints from fatigue. And perhaps someone could belt out on the piano, a rendition of "I've Got You Under My Skin" lol

Excellent question!

And if he indeed has left the building, does he feel rejected a fifth time? Or was any part of thesse 8 pages encouraging?