Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Composer's Lounge "Composing" vs "Songwriting"

Well, it looks like we've got a consensus. I sure am glad that's resolved!

Actually, this whole discussion gives me a much better idea as to how people view the whole thing. Songwriting is composing, but there are definitely repetitive songs out there that don't "feel" very composed.

Chris, I like your definition of a "Composer" with a capital "C". Had me in tears. Especially the part about the hair.

Also, I've heard talk of some pieces being "just" a backdrop for the vocals. But isn't the human voice an instrument as well? In pop music it's typically the lead instrument, but well sung vocals follow a progression of notes and typically make a melody. Would a piece be somehow more "composed" if a piano or flute progressed through those same notes instead of a human voice?

It really does seem like there's a "feel" factor here. Maybe we could get a US Supreme Court justice to determine what's "composed" for us: "I know it when I hear it."

dave

i guess that you understand that i didn't say it in theoritical or technical term, in which composing means either song writing or instrumental music composing. but whenever people say 'song writing' it usaully refers to 'writing music for songs', and some people do it for living and call themselves as song writers. but those composers who compose mostly instrumental works would never call themselve a song writer, even if they'd write songs or even art songs sometimes.

Indeed it is. In fact it's often claimed that the voice is the premier instrument and that it's the one that humans most instinctively respond to. It certainly has an amazing range of qualities and capbilities. Much to the annoyance of those of us who sing like wounded dogs, it's always the singer who gets their face and name on the front of the album cover, and who demands - and gets - the centre stage spotlight.

One of the huge benefits of overcoming our natural reluctance to inflict our vocal emanations on the world, and actually do a bit of singing practice, is that you can then effectively play two instruments at once. This doubles the fun, but probably at least trebles the effects that you can create with your performance.

I would pay very good money for more playing ability, but I would kill for a better voice...

Cheers,

Chris
(Sorry, I lost my composure there for a moment.... )

Yes, I get where you are now, signa, and I agree. The problem with this thread is probably that we're discussing two things at the same time - what words have come to mean in some contexts, and what concepts mean overall. But it's been fun .

Chris,
LOL! You and me both! Actually, I think I can see the writing on the wall. Even though I can't sing, if I plan on writing lyrics, I think I'm going to have to sing some of them, especially if I write one of those songs where the lyrics carry the melody. Yikes! That's a scary prospect!

But wait, could there be hope... I know when I sing in a room with a vaulted ceiling, it sounds better than in a closed room, and in the shower it sounds even better. And a karaoke mike sounds better than a normal mike. So, with reverb and echo... is there software out there to modify the voice enough to get someone who can't sing through a pop/rock song without killing everyone?

OK, back to my piano.
dave

Go for it Dave!

Very few people actually can't sing. If you can croak out Happy Birthday or Twinkle Twinkle Little Star then you can sing. The rest is practice and polish, just like any instrument.

The only mistake is imagining that if you can't sing naturally and immediately then you're doomed to always be bad. None of us expect to be instantly good at any other instrument. The great thing about voice is that you've always got your instrument with you, and can practice hands-free as you drive, or wherever.

As you've suggested, there are many tricks in the effects box that can enhance the vocal qualities of your voice. Many singers have their voices tweaked through the equipment, even on 'live' gigs. But I'm guessing you know that - you'd just like the 'Instant Sinatra' module...

I also fancy myself at having a bash at songwriting. Here's an early attempt. As you can tell I'm not faking either the lousy singing, or the deeply mediocre playing. But it suits the theme of the song. And most of all I swallowed my pride, and fears and DID it!

Perfectionist Beginner Blues


Good luck with your singing, composing and songwriting.

Cheers,

Chris

Chris!

I don't even know what to say. I've got a big old grin on my face! I love your lyrics... they are great! And so appropriate! Wow... well, with the encouragement, and that song... how could I not sing? Honestly, I love what you've done with that. It just goes to show that sometimes you just need to push forward, no matter what. Wow. I don't know what else to say, except that I'm going to sing.

Thank you! And you too! I plan on hanging around this board, so I hope you don't mind if I ask you from time to time how your singing is going.

dave <-- also with the can't sing blues

We have a pact then mate. Race you to the top of the charts...

Chris

LOL! You got it, man! A pact it is! Oh, and let the race begin!

dave

Actually, that's a perfectly valid use of the word. While "composer" is most popularly/typically used to refer to someone who composes music, there's nothing specifically musical about the etymology of the word, which comes from the Latin “componere,” meaning to combine, put together or arrange objects. One can compose any type of work from a painting or photograph to a sonnet or essay. (Which helps to explain why many academic writing classes are called "English Composition" or something similar.) So, odd as it may sound to a musician, referring to the composer of a poem, etc. is correct.

Thanks by the way for the etymological exercise. I like looking up the derivation/meaning of words.

Correct perhaps, but confusing. Well actually, not so much confusing as not specific enough for me. I do find that language is getting more and more general, and in so doing is not as bright and vivid as it could be. Anyway, son is pleased to be finished with English and is heading off to uni to study his first love, science .

Hi,

I think that this is more a matter of accepted common usage and personal preference than ‘correctness’ as such.

The words composer and composition have a wide range of uses, but they don’t always go hand in hand.

For instance, we might talk about the ‘composition’ of a painting, but we wouldn’t then talk about the role of the composer – we’d say ‘artist’ or ‘painter’. Similarly we might argue about the composition of a football team but we’d hardly call for the ‘composer’ to be sacked – we’d just say that whoever picked the team got it wrong.

If I got angry and lost my ‘composure’ most people would accept it if I said that I needed to go outside for a moment or two and compose myself. But some might giggle at that and find it a slightly quaint way to put it. There’s no hard and fast rules based on the original derivation of a word.

It’s perfect usual to refer to essays, poems and the like as ‘compositions’ but most people would expect their creators to be referred to as ‘authors’, ‘writers’, ‘poets’ or a number of other possibilities before ‘composers’. It might be technically not a mis-use, but it would still sound odd to many people. Depending on the area in question, you may find 'composition' widely used yet the verb form 'to compose' more rarely, and 'composer' not at all.

However, common usage changes constantly, so if a word gets used often enough in a certain way, then – like it or not – that’s what it comes to mean. Some words that we use today started out historically meaning the exact opposite of what we use them to mean now.

Cheers,

Chris

Good points, Chris, and interesting. I would actually refer to the "composition" of a photograph, but I would be meaning "the putting of this object here on the left and balancing it with this other thing over there", not the act of clicking the shutter. And i would definitely call its creator a photographer and not a composer, just for clarity's sake. Maybe "creator" is the general all-purpose word I'd prefer to the English course's "composer".

Hi again,

Here's another example. I might talk about the 'composition' of a chemical compound. I might even say "it is 'composed of'... " but I'd probably be unlikely to say "Im off to compose a new compound..." or refer to somebody who did as a 'composer'.

No real reason, except that we don't usually use the words that way.

Actually, there is a reason. English is an unusually mongrel language that has absorbed words from all over the place - Latin, Greek, French, German, Scandinavian languages, even from India, China, America, etc, etc. So we have an unusually large number of synonyms and alternatives to choose from. And we have a habit of switching from one form or usage to another in a way that must be completely baffling to non English speakers....

Chris

Recommended reading: Mother Tongue by Bill Bryson. A very readable book on the development and use of the English language.

I'm with you on that one too.

I've done a fair bit of writing over the years, including co-authoring manuals, occasional poetry, song lyrics, work for the theatre, odds and ends for newspapers, etc. But I never thought of myself as the 'composer' of any of it - just the writer. However, the beauty of having so many options in English is that you can also employ less used words to add a bit of extra meaning, such as in: "I'll have to compose a suitably apologetic letter to the Board.." or "I've been asked to compose an ode to Councillor Blowhard on the occasion of his retirement"... In that case, you'd normally use 'write', but 'compose' adds a touch of slightly tongue in cheek seriousness to the process. Maybe they just thought that calling them 'composers' made the course sound a bit grander than it really was?


Gotta love English though....

Cheers,

Chris

Ahah, that made my very short day.

I consider myself a composer/songwriter.

A "song" is only one kind of composition. If you only write songs, then you're a songwriter or a “composer of songs”.

If however, you write instrumental music, you're a composer.

If you wear both hats, you're a composer/ songwriter.

At least that's how I see it.

Best, John