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#1141209 - 02/19/08 12:22 AM Disciple has been driven off  
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That was shameful how some members treated Disciple in some other threads. I did not know that was going on or I would have tried to stand up for him. Disciple is perhaps the finest pianist on this forum that I have encountered and undeniably a great master of the instrument. I have witnessed his amazing abilities. I can imagine how badly I would feel if all that contempt had been thrown at me. Disciple was a great source of information and always willing to help. He actually helped me modify my technique. His knowledge was quite valuable. Why do people like that always need to try to tear down those who are great?


Casio PX-360 digital piano, Mojo 61 digital organ, 1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.
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#1141210 - 02/19/08 12:29 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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What? What threads? There's so much traffic on PW that I missed the 'discussions'.
I'd at the very least like to thank him for introducing me to Martial Solal.

Regards

Andy


-----------
Oh, life is a glorious cycle of song,
A medley of extemporanea;
And love is a thing that can never go wrong,
And I am Marie of Romania.
#1141211 - 02/19/08 12:37 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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What's going on?!!! I missed all this action.

Disciple is such an asset to this forum. I may have to agree that he's most likely the finest pianist here. It would be terrible to lose him (again). I for one have learned so much from him even from his prior posts as another user.

Those who tear him down are unlikely to be capable of besting him in playing.

It saddens me to see this happen.


Pianoclues.com for Beginners
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Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

#1141212 - 02/19/08 01:21 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Sometime ago when Disciple posted using the name Virtuosic1, I downloaded his playing of Donna Lee. Now Jazzers know what Donna Lee is, it is played pretty uptempo to begin with.

Well, Disciple played a solo of Donna Lee with SIXTEENTH NOTES and extremely precise articulation and very relaxed swing feel. It is plain AWESOME. I'm listening to it right now. If Disciple isn't famous, he should be.

I asked him to post this link again but unfortunately he did not. Most musicians of Disciple's caliber will not post music on a site like this because of Intellectual property issues. And I clearly understand that. But he was one of the few jazz masters who shared.

The people in the classical forum have NO IDEA of Disciple's pedigree, studying directly from Tristano. Heck, they may not even know who Tristano is.

I for one spotted Disciple as no ordinary poster. I hope he comes back and stays in the Non-Classical section where he will not have detractors.


Pianoclues.com for Beginners
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Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

#1141213 - 02/19/08 01:45 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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I have checked old posts and didn't see any attack against Disciple. I have actually seen Disciple attacking Daniel without any apparent reason.

It's not the first time Disciple got into problems with other users. It happened on pianostreet and I supported him all the time but I couldn't pretend he wasn't doing at good job at stirring discussion with his discrimination of younger members and sudden mood swings from calm to offensive.

#1141214 - 02/19/08 02:35 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Jason
#1141215 - 02/19/08 02:56 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Nobody has 'driven' disciple off. He was frustrated because many of his claims were not taken seriously. In the virtual world the proof must be in the pudding, or we get nowhere - I just can't see why he couldn't provide it. I do, for what it's worth.


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#1141216 - 02/19/08 03:24 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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On second thought I have read the thread.
No one threated Discipline badly and honestly it would have been impossible to stand up for him.

And I have to say it would have been impossible to agree with the premise of his argument anyway. It's a ridicolous nonsense the snob accademic belief that those who don't appreciate serial or stochastic music are just inferior people used to simple music who need a lot of ear training.

Those genres of music are not the natural evolution of older classical music of whatever nonsense is claimed but a completely different approach and philosophy to sound and in fact the whole idea behind modernism in music started with a political and social philosophy and only later "contaminated" music.

I don't appreciate that music not because I need to get used to it or need my ear to be educated or whatever nonsense but because I don't appreciate, support and relate to the philosophy and approach to sounds which is behind the creation of that music. So Disciple can't be defended in this instance. We should learn to respect our different mindsets and worlviews rather than creating dogma and becoming extreme fristrated fundamentalists when someone doesn't agree with the dogma.

On the other hand Dnephi too is a good musician and a talented pianist and also a kind and helpful guy and he doesn't deserve such aggressive and insulting replies.

#1141217 - 02/19/08 10:01 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
sudden mood swings from calm to offensive.
Hm. I see.

I've posted in the pianist corner for awhile and it has been, sadly, a negative experience. The crowd there does not take kindly to alternate viewpoints.

He and I have exchanged some private messages and he struck me as an amazing and kind person. From what I remember he spent a lot of his early life listening to the highly dissonant music of the 20th century. I am actually doing something similar.

I think it is fair to say that no one could understand someone of such depth through an internet forum. I'll see if I can contact him.

-Colin

#1141218 - 02/19/08 10:20 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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It seems that people at the upper ends are often complex individuals, sometimes confusing to understand or deal with. Whether or not what they present can be understood, or whether it can be presented in this kind of medium, at least one gets glimpses and gleanings. Even if those glimpses remain meaningless or not applicable because of the reader's own present limitations, they tend to have an essence about them which stay like a seed for some future time. It's a loss if such people disappear, even if the world is calmer without the intensity.

#1141219 - 02/19/08 01:20 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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If we don't know a person's capabilities, is the proper response to challenge them to a duel to prove their skill?

What if Oscar Peterson had posted on this forum and we didn't know who it was. Then, do we say, "prove your skill to us!". If I were OP I'd say to myself, go jump in the lake, I've got nothing to prove.

He has already shared transcriptions and analysis of things that are far beyond what any hobbyist here would even try. There's the occasional Pro that comes here and posts and none of them really offers free information like Disciple did. Most don't want to distribute information about something that they make a living from.

In that case, he was unique. The problem is that someone at this level will obviously react at 18 year old music students challenging him. This is an anonymous forum. It must be hard to separate the anonymous elements from his posts since he knows what he can do but no one will spend to the time figuring out who he is.

Alas, that is the disadvantage of an anonymous forum. Here we are all equal. Masters and hobbyists alike. People will have to judge our written words on their own.


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#1141220 - 02/19/08 02:06 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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There is another unstated factor. If you are someone capable of demonstrating something, there is no way of realistically assessing whether anyone is absorbing it or even paying attention. Those who are the most attentive might be the most infrequent posters, or don't post at all. the impression that the instructing party gets only comes from actual feedback, and some of that feedback might be argumentative - what impression is left?

#1141221 - 02/19/08 04:44 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by jazzwee:
In that case, he was unique. The problem is that someone at this level will obviously react at 18 year old music students challenging him.
No he wouldn't.
I play for myself, for my passion for music and the piano. I don't play to have others telling me how good and nice I am. I don't give a flying cow about having my skills recognized by someone except me. There's nothing mature about bragging how you can play this or that with your hands tied and blindfolded and there's nothing mature in getting hysterical when someone doubts you and there's nothing mature in applying ageist discrimination to feel better about yourself.
The kids he has accused in those instances have showed way more maturity than him.

I don't consider music as simplistically as "by levels". Each of us has a unique perspective and approach and dismissing them because "they're lower level" is a terrible personal loss.
I have beginners 12 year old younger me giving me suggestions about matters they believe I could benefits from knowing througha different perspective. I have never dared to insult a beginner because "I know better and I have done what you're doing so many year ago". I instead accept whatever they have to offer and am moved by their kindness to share their information to me.

More often than not I realize that a beginner is not just what I was many levels ago but a musician with an unique perspective which can help me to see things and musical matters from an angle I have never considered before.

We're all teachers and learners at whatever age and at whatever level. Arrogance is pathetic and useful to no one.

#1141222 - 02/19/08 05:15 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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http://youtube.com/watch?v=5C5gnAqgttY&feature=user

For the record, Disciple playing. Speaks volumes.

If there are any other clips of him, I for one would love to see them.


-----------
Oh, life is a glorious cycle of song,
A medley of extemporanea;
And love is a thing that can never go wrong,
And I am Marie of Romania.
#1141223 - 02/19/08 05:27 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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I was not sure what the point of this thread is, and now I am sure I dont know


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#1141224 - 02/19/08 08:39 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5C5gnAqgttY&feature=user

For the record, Disciple playing. Speaks volumes.
No kidding.

I would be pretty upset too if I spent my entire life pursuing music only to have some people on the internet rip me down for no apparent reason. It's no wonder the true masters don't post on the internet - they don't have time for this crap. And things are easily misconstrued. I am pretty sure the forum-goers would react in much the same way to Mozart, Beethoven, Scriabin, Rachmaninoff, etc.

Sometimes you have to stick up for what you know you have accomplished. It wasn't socially appropriate, but artists tend not to be. And I think you have to harbor some "delusions of grandeur" at times to be truly great. We all know how much "the real world" and "realists" want to keep the creative spirit down.

What can I say, for as little contact I had with him, I love the guy.

#1141225 - 02/19/08 09:05 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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I was curious about this, so I searched out the thread and read it. What an arrogant little jerk. In all my years on the Internet (and yes, I've been around a while, sadly), I don't think I've ever encountered such a small-minded, self-important a$$.

So, "disciple," all I can say is...don't let the door smack you in the butt on the way out.

Sheesh. Good riddance.

Edit: I'd like to add that I did watch the "signature" youtube vid. Yeah, ok, fine. It takes a lot of fast moving fingers to do that. But it did absolutely nothing for me musically. Whatever.

#1141226 - 02/19/08 10:13 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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I was gone for a week, I come back, and one of the forum's most valuable members is gone?
That's really too bad. He was one of the few people on this board who REALLY knows how to play the piano. I don't even care what happened. Disciple is awesome.

J. Mark-do you need a tissue or something? You seem pretty worked up there, gangster. You seem to get worked up alot on PW...

Disciple is a real musician and a fabulous pianist. I can even say that and I don't know anything about jazz.
I hope he returns.

#1141227 - 02/19/08 10:38 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by Mr_Kitty:
I was gone for a week, I come back, and one of the forum's most valuable members is gone?
That's really too bad. He was one of the few people on this board who REALLY knows how to play the piano. I don't even care what happened. Disciple is awesome.

J. Mark-do you need a tissue or something? You seem pretty worked up there, gangster. You seem to get worked up alot on PW...
Competency and knowledge can't make up for aggressivity, arrogance, presumptious, rudeness and closed mindedness. I don't have enough self-loathing to worship someone and get down on my knees to kiss his holy *** all the time.
Mrs Argerich could join the forum and provide lot of insight and unvaluable advices but should she mistreat other people, get psychotic, insult others arrogantly and display an excess of closed mindedness I would never excuse her behavior just because she's famous/genius/knowledgeable ... I would tell her to get the **** out.

#1141228 - 02/20/08 04:18 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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"The problem is that someone at this level will obviously react at 18 year old music students challenging him"

Sorry mate, but if one has such problems he himself is the problem rather than the music student.

I have read the topic and, without questioning the proficiency of disciple (I was impressed and wrote so), it is fair to say that he behaved like a primadonna.

If you decide to write on the internet, you must live with different opinions and even with people you don't like; these are bound to be there in a virtual space as everywhere else in life, irrespective of how accomplished a pianist you are.

Frankly, if I had not read it in the posts I would have assumed that keyboardklutz was the mature 54 years old and disciple the nervous teenager, whatever the disagreements between them.

Noone can come here with the expectation of being worshipped or his word never put in doubt and start throwing toys around if he isn't.

I hope that disciple will come back to this forum and hope to be able to learn from his contributions. But at the end of the day noone chased him away, it was his choice and BTW, to leave a forum that you like because another poster disagrees with you does not sound particularly mature to me.


"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

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#1141229 - 02/20/08 04:26 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by Reaper978:
I would be pretty upset too if I spent my entire life pursuing music only to have some people on the internet rip me down for no apparent reason.
Why? What do you care what some moron says or thinks about you? Picking a fight with them -- which is what they want -- won't change their opinion anyway, at least not for the better. Validating yourself through the opinions of others is a pretty lousy way to feel good about yourself.


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#1141230 - 02/20/08 04:55 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Some people need to repeat on a daily basis "It's just the Internet."

If you can't take the heat - people differing with your opinion - without getting pompous and defensive, maybe your should stay out of the kitchen.

I belong to another forum where - among many other things - we talk about piano because a lot of us are piano player - some professional, and most amateur (me the latter).

A person joined, announced himself as a professional here to help all of us, made assumptions of other members based on reading 1 or 2 posts, and generally made an *** of himself. When some of us gave him feedback ("Uhh...we actually have teachers who tell us obvious things like 'practice hands separate,' and we're here really just to discuss, and if we don't ask specific questions then please don't assume advice is being solicited. Also, I don't really agree with you about....anyway," he got really defensive, and name calling obnoxious.

Too bad, some of the music on his Website was kind of nice, and I'm sure he would have good things to contribute with a different attitude, and signal to noise ratio.

If you go to a dinner party only to yell and throw food whenever someone disagrees with you - no matter how smart you are - guess what, you don't get invited back.

#1141231 - 02/20/08 06:58 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by AD:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5C5gnAqgttY&feature=user

For the record, Disciple playing. Speaks volumes.

If there are any other clips of him, I for one would love to see them.
And so would everyone else. As they say - one swallow does not a summer make. Or, more Teutonically, einmal ist keinmal.

By the way I shall be a happy 52 next week not the innocent (I couldn't go through that again) 18 presumed by innominato.


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#1141232 - 02/20/08 08:31 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Jeez, you're old... wink


"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

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#1141233 - 02/20/08 09:07 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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A youngster, by my books. Which makes me a youngster too. KbK, as well as almost being an age-mate, are you a fellow Aquarian or more of the fishy variety - said fish being known of being able to swim in opposite directions yet maintain unity, if you look at the horoscope sign.

#1141234 - 02/20/08 09:17 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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[edit] never mind!


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#1141235 - 02/20/08 09:33 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Hi Monica,

It all started to fall apart when he said he could play the Chopin Etudes and the Godowsky Chopin Etudes. I must admit I don't really understand why that caused so much skepticism given his background and skills...

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/2/17070.html#000012

[edit] too late!

#1141236 - 02/20/08 10:13 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by Innominato:
Jeez, you're old... wink
Getting older is like driving: it is a privilege, not a right. A privilege that can be cancelled at any time.

ocd


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#1141237 - 02/20/08 10:29 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
The problem is that someone at this level will obviously react at 18 year old music students challenging him.
Like a number of others, this passage struck me.

I have NOT read the thread in question, nor do I plan to. I have read plenty that seem like it.

I suspect there is plenty of guilt to throw around.

First, a true master can be a good and patient teacher. Young people are often arrogant. After all, they know what life is all about and the secrets of the universe are all plain to them! One of the jobs of us 'older folks' is to suggest to them, patiently and without venom, that their certainty about everything may prevent them from gaining a deeper understanding.

On the other hand, we all know that the anonymity of the internet creates a hot house in which the worst aspects of personality often dominate. Somebody has to be the adult, and if no one chooses to step up to that role we get a meltdown.

#1141238 - 02/20/08 10:34 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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What a shame to lose such a great player. I am listening to his video right now--he is magic. I have not read the thread it question either, but he's amazing and seemed to be a very great asset to this group. I have never encountered him myself, nor have I really "met" him here on piano forums, but it is sad that his knowledge is lost to us.


"Music can name the unnameable and communicate the unknowable." -Leonard Bernstein
#1141239 - 02/20/08 10:41 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Good grief. "...his knowledge is lost to us...." Sheesh. You'd think we were talking about Bach himself... particularly absurd coming from someone who admittedly has "never encountered" the guy, on the forums or otherwise, or even read the damn thread.

Let's be clear: we are not talking about Bach himself. Hardly. And might I suggest that people actually read the thread before making these profound statements? (You, too, David... You might find it a little beyond what you are used to around here....)

There are plenty of "great players" on these forums, and among them there is no shortage of kind, patient, decent, generous, thoughtful people, who will share their knowledge graciously, without embarrasingly overblown self-aggrandizement. We can quite easily do without the latter.

#1141240 - 02/20/08 11:05 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by AD:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5C5gnAqgttY&feature=user

For the record, Disciple playing. Speaks volumes.

If there are any other clips of him, I for one would love to see them.
I am sorry that this man feels he has been "driven out" (perhaps resigned, or "gone off in a huff" may be a more apt description). His contributions to the forum were so profound I can't actually recall ever having read any of them.
However having seen his video I quite admire his touch if not his tune.
Should he wish to return does he really have to tinkle his ivories wearing fishnet stockings? or was that a trick of the light on the video?

#1141241 - 02/20/08 11:24 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Im an aquarian too - also heading towards antiquarian:-)


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#1141242 - 02/20/08 03:33 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by J. Mark:
Good grief. "...his knowledge is lost to us...." Sheesh. You'd think we were talking about Bach himself... particularly absurd coming from someone who admittedly has "never encountered" the guy, on the forums or otherwise, or even read the damn thread.

Let's be clear: we are not talking about Bach himself.
If Bach were rude, arrogant, psychotic and aggressive with me I wouldn't give a damn about his genius and kick him out. If anyone is willing to be abused, mistreated and insulted just to have the chance to learn something new from a master ... I just say good luck with your self-confidence!

#1141243 - 02/20/08 03:38 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
Quote
The problem is that someone at this level will obviously react at 18 year old music students challenging him.
Like a number of others, this passage struck me.

I have NOT read the thread in question, nor do I plan to. I have read plenty that seem like it.

I suspect there is plenty of guilt to throw around.

First, a true master can be a good and patient teacher. Young people are often arrogant. After all, they know what life is all about and the secrets of the universe are all plain to them! One of the jobs of us 'older folks' is to suggest to them, patiently and without venom, that their certainty about everything may prevent them from gaining a deeper understanding.


Read the thread. No one acted like he knows everything about life and the secret of the universe ... except him!

There was no young (what the heck of a difference does it make is criticism comes from a young one or an older one?!) guy acting arrogant and presumptuous with him.

People were not skeptic of his claim just disturbed by all that pomposity that he believed allowed him to defend his dogmatic belief with aggressive insult and to bash those who thought otherwise.

#1141244 - 02/20/08 03:50 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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OK, OK, which thread? There are a number of them.

#1141245 - 02/20/08 04:24 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Um, did you read *this* thread, David?

Hint: there's a link up above....

#1141246 - 02/20/08 04:26 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
OK, OK, which thread? There are a number of them.
LaValse posted the link above

#1141247 - 02/20/08 05:11 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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As ever, J.Mark, sarcasm becomes you ....

#1141248 - 02/20/08 05:38 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Sheesh, what an ugly and childish thread that was. And yes, I do think there was ugliness and childishness all around.

Disciple has a very big chip on his shoulder, and is easily provoked. But others here seem to have really enjoyed provoking him over and over in many threads. That's a spectator sport that doesn't sit well with me. I do not know the PianoStreet history, so I'll stay out of that.

Lord only knows why I have said anything in this unfortunate thread. All it'll likely get me is some vituperative comments or more sarcasm. The fact that I see bad behavior on all sides just ensures that everyone will diss me. laugh

#1141249 - 02/20/08 07:27 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Danny suggests Disciple is "psychotic".
That's more swift boat style smear tactics.


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#1141250 - 02/20/08 07:33 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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I don't say he is psychotic, I said he had a psychotic reaction. It's different. People are not either aggressive or angelic. They have sometimes aggressive behaviors and sometimes angelic behaviors. I judge the behavior and the action not the person!

#1141251 - 02/20/08 07:40 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Reminds me of a joke:

"Somebody said you were rude, arrogant, psychotic and aggressive!"

"Really!?"

"Yeah. I told them! I said 'He's not psychotic!'"

#1141252 - 02/20/08 07:43 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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I can tell you self righteous types get off on all of this.


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#1141253 - 02/20/08 07:57 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Edit: I initially responded to this, but on second thought, I see no point in further comment.

#1141254 - 02/20/08 09:19 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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I actually thought he was pretty funny. It sort of reminded me of some the arguments I hear the Middle School kids in the school I work at engaging in.

Instead of any kind of intelligent and reasoned disagreement they degenerate rapidly into having 'hissy' fits.

Pretty funny to listen to.

That was the way Valdemoort used to strike me here too.


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#1141255 - 02/21/08 01:21 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Here's Donna Lee and other sample tunes courtesy of Disciple. This is something he posted a long time ago. As someone who appreciates Jazz, this is pretty amazing to me.

http://www.box.net/shared/gk1mboa0os

Disciple did not leave this forum as a "Prima Donna". He was apparently banned.

As I've said before, he's one of the few professional musicians on this forum who has shared a prodigious amount knowledge and information, especially to those of us who understood what he was sharing.


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#1141256 - 02/21/08 09:18 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Hello. I don't visit PW or post here as much as I used to. When I checked in a week or so ago, I read a little bit of two posts in which Disciple had posted. His posts made me wonder if this is the same person I had a run in with here on PW about a year ago. Someone in this post says that Disciple used to post under the name Virtuosic1. It IS the same guy.

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/37/765.html#000009

The question is, what amount of *stuff* are/should we be willing to put up with for the sake of talent, knowledge, expertise? At what point does it - a person, sorry to say - become just not worth it?

Jeanne W


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#1141257 - 02/21/08 09:22 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Yes Disciple was known as Virtuosic1

#1141258 - 02/21/08 11:37 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by Jeanne W:
Hello. I don't visit PW or post here as much as I used to. When I checked in a week or so ago, I read a little bit of two posts in which Disciple had posted. His posts made me wonder if this is the same person I had a run in with here on PW about a year ago. Someone in this post says that Disciple used to post under the name Virtuosic1. It IS the same guy.

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/37/765.html#000009

The question is, what amount of *stuff* are/should we be willing to put up with for the sake of talent, knowledge, expertise? At what point does it - a person, sorry to say - become just not worth it?

Jeanne W
I see similarities between the two threads. In both threads there was a discussion about music, and virtuosic1/disciple was elevating the discussion to a high level. He was opinionated and informative about the music, and he spoke his opinion. But he was speakin about the music in question. Then people started insulting him personally, and he responded with anger, understandably.

In your "run in", the mess started when livraf said:
"blah, blah, blah, virtuosic....do you want some cheese with that whine ?? We have already heard enough of your rants against these "new age" pianists.
Your rants are bringing out the school girl in you...."

Similarly, in the other thread, disciple said he could play the difficult pieces in the context of a musical discussion. Someone responded with sarcasm, implying that he was lying. Something like "and I'm the king of Greece," and the next 3 or 4 posts were purely ridiculing disciple. Shameful.

Disciple was not the agressor.

If the *stuff* you are talking about is someone saying they don't like a particular piano player, then doing without that *stuff* would reduce the discussion to triviality.

#1141259 - 02/22/08 12:21 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Disciple was not the aggressor.
He was and is an excellent musician.
Calling him psychotic, arrogant, rude, and aggressive seems a bit much.
I read the thread in question. It was a stupid thread and it should have been locked LONG before things got out of hand.
PW is lucky to have musicians of that level posting on the forums. They are few and far between.
Anyone who doubted that he could play the Chopin Etudes was simply being foolish. Lang Lang played the Chopin etudes at age 13 and so have hundreds and hundreds of others. Disciple has a level of technical mastery over the instrument which is indeed rare. When you can play like he can, Chopin etudes ARE easy.

Shame on those of you that ever provoked this man.

Honestly....for a person of that level to spend their time sharing their valuable knowledge over the internet for ZERO personal gain.... with people who bait him like a chained beast and provoke him until he lashes out and gets banned.

As Wavelength said: shameful. Absolutely shameful.

#1141260 - 02/22/08 12:45 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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He was the aggressor.
The arrogance and abusive way in which he holds to his idea (often wrong or at least biased and questionable) attacking everyone who doesn't agree with him is indeed aggression.

He has not been banned.

#1141261 - 02/22/08 01:12 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Speaking with passionate conviction about music is not agression.
Hurling personal insults is.
He did the former. His detractors did the latter.

#1141262 - 02/22/08 01:25 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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I could speak with passionate conviction about the piano, it doesn't mean I have to be defensive and abusive against sax players. As soon as someone started disagreeing with him he began insulting this person, getting mad at him, bragging about his abilities at naseum and becoming rather untreateable. Sorry but this is closed-mindedness not passion.

#1141263 - 02/22/08 02:32 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Disciple had alot to offer to this forum
His detractors should be ashamed of their behaviour!

#1141264 - 02/22/08 02:44 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Mr_Kitty, you of all people should not be throwing stones.


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#1141265 - 02/22/08 03:47 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Let me just say this: First of all I like the three of you guys (Danny, Mr. Kitty, Klutz). You're all quite contentious but some good stuff comes out from it. I enjoy reading all your discussions and you're all well intended.

So as long as nothing gets personal, I hope things continue. This is what the forum is for. To have good intelligent discussions and then we use our own judgement and maybe learn a thing or two. I just hoped that Disciple was also there because there was some good discussion going. Being opinionated is not a bad thing. It gives us something to talk about.

I'm not in the blame game. You three have good ideas in your heads that sometimes gets unclear (and which results in arguments). Often the correct answer is closer to middle.

So could we look at things in the positive light now? Carry on with the debates about technique and music. Personal attacks of any sort are boring. It gets people banned and then we suffer from the lack of good debate.


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#1141266 - 02/22/08 03:54 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Hear, hear!


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#1141267 - 02/22/08 03:54 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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I just read that thread where Disciple wrote at length about some sentimental new age pianist:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/37/765.html#000009

His points were excellent. I can see that many people don't understand where he is coming from. Disciple is a New Yorker and from the Lennie Tristano school, he's not the "Have a nice day smile " California type. Disciple is like a 10th degree black belt in piano, he is a bit fierce. If you give him crap he will give it back to you. So some liked to tease him and then when he reacts back they condemn him.

I think he has written the most insightful posts I have read anywhere on this forum.


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#1141268 - 02/22/08 09:34 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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I just don't get it. When you write something like this you invite very strong and sarcastic push back from people who disagree:

Quote
Anyone here can already write, or be quickly taught to write similar nursery rhyme compositions. The only difference between Crain and someone on this Forum is that Crain writes nonsense like this believing that he's an artist, but the only artistry he displays is his ability to convince someone else that he's an artist, the same way that an artist will take a 50 foot steel girder, spray paint it red, name it "Sunrise", and convince not only an auction house, but a buyer that it's a work of art. Slow C major to A minor to D minor, to G7 arpeggios in the right hand, played on a Bosendorfer 9 footer, with low octave left hand pedal points will sound just as pretty, yet remain just as trivial as anything Crain has composed and recorded. That's because any tone on a well made concert grand, miked and recorded properly will sound pretty, not because Crain strung musical elements together in any type of meaningful, creative, artistic way. Hanon exercises sound pretty on the right piano.
If this isn't aggressive, then I don't know what aggressive is. He writes his opinion in a manner that suggests that anyone who disagrees is an ignoramus. Is this what it means to be a New Yorker? This is not a reasoned argument. It is an opinionated rant. I couldn't care less whether he is God's gift to music.

On the other hand, the reactions to his posts are equally sophomoric. It takes at least two to have a blow up. Many people seemed to enjoy poking this angry hornet of a pianist. I find that behavior just as reprehensible as his egotistical outbursts. Forums like this seem to breed a lot of non-adults.

This discussion about who is the aggressor is getting kind of silly.

#1141269 - 02/22/08 09:51 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Summary so far:

His ideas were often brilliant.

His manner was often offensive.

Suggestion: Supporters should put together a compilation of his best posts, with the offensive parts edited out.

This would prove your point.

It would also provide a useful guide to his school of thought, thereby salvaging something worthwhile out of this unfortunate series of events.

I'm not sure what form this would take.

Ed


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#1141270 - 02/22/08 09:52 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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#1141271 - 02/22/08 10:58 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
... Is this what it means to be a New Yorker? ...
Absolutely not. The allusion to his style being due to where he lives was a sorry attempt at apologism for his boorish behavior. As someone who has lived in NY for over 27 years (15 of them in Manhattan and 3 of them in Brooklyn), I can tell you, this guy is *not* representative of New Yorkers. The New York "style" of being a bit brusque can put off people who are not from the area, but once you understand it, you realize it is tempered with a measure of (often self-deprecating) humor. In truth, New Yorkers are the friendliest people on earth (with the possible exception of the good Irish smile ).

Mark

#1141272 - 02/22/08 11:04 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Riddler's idea is a good one, though I , for one, am probably too much of a beginner to profit fom most of his more insightful comments, particualrly in the area of jazz harmony.

I have read his threads and find nothing offensive in them, but then my ego is not at stake when someone claims to have played Chopin's Etudes as a child, because I can't play any of them and so have no pretensions of pianistic competence. I read it and think: "Wow, good for him(her).I suppose that's the level of techinical skill the elite players need."
And then "Of course this is the internet, so the claim might be nonsense..." and have lost nothing. I watched his video playing Tristano and thought: "Yeah, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.", whereas the sceptics have offered nothing but talk, which is cheap.

As far as his disparaging comments about New Age music goes: meh, I don't like it either, whether it's complex or not.
I loathe Sorabji and love twelve-bar, three-chord blues: pile on the contempt, I won't take it personally and it won't make me reach for a Stravinsky CD over Muddy Waters.


I think Piano Dad's post illustrates the core subtext: people whose ego is tied up in their aesthetic judgements. Grow up.

I don't see Disciple as in the wrong here at all. He backed up his assertions with reasons, and as far as I saw he never attacked a poster personally except in self-defence and if he criticized someone's favourite type of music or composer, it was on grounds of musical sophistication, which adults know is independent of aesthetic value, which is subjective. Period.

My reading of this whole thing is that a few people whose egos are tied up in being the "big experts on the block", could not handle competition from an idiosyncratic outsider who bucked conventional wisdom and, perhaps indelicately, made hamburger of a few sacred cows.


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#1141273 - 02/22/08 11:25 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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On the banning: it would be nice if some moderator would give "official" information about this.

Personally I am sure of having read from him that he would not write on this forum anymore, which he subsequently did; as a result, unless the contrary is said from the moderators I will assume that he went out of his own volition and can come back (as I hope he will do) anytime he wants.

On the quarrel himself, I would like to put my two cents again.

I can be Daniel Barenboim writing under a nickname, but if I say that I can do this and that and someone says to me "well, show us", I might want to do it or not, but really there's no reason why I should react so violently as he did.

It's the internet, people.
No one can see someone else in the face or hear him playing unless he wants. The request to hear what one is claiming of being able of is perfectly legitimate, as it is legitimate the answer "sorry, I do not think I have to demonstrate anything, you believe me or you don't". End of the story and have a nice day.

Disciple is, in my eyes, a very competent pianist, but should not have taken it as a personal offense that someone questioned the ability of a person claimed via the internet asking for the recording.

It would be different if I were, say, Daniel Barenboim and someone would write in the board "I heard you yesterday and you were crap": one has heard and spoken an offensive opinion.

But to say "I believe when I see it" should be nothing offensive, even Thomas made it up to Sainthood and no damage done...


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#1141274 - 02/22/08 12:08 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Innominato, it is a certainty that Disciple was banned. It was claimed by Dnephi that he was being harrassed by personal PM's and that could have been the trigger or he could have requested the banning.

The PM, as I understand it, was just a repeat of what was posted on the thread (i.e. come to Queens re: the wager).

So that this discussion is not one sided, I will post a message from Disciple:

Quote

Since he's the one that posted "I'll bet you my car that you can't play a
Chopin Etude of my choice", I don't see that as a threat in any way. Now, he's
posting on the forum that "I threatened him".

This wasn't about my being a primadonna. Someone posted about Liszt and
Chopin etudes and I answered "Being that I play all of these along with the
Godowski Variations...." and I started to give some pianistic insight into their
performance. Suddenly, DNephi and his pals jumped on me, "You can't play any of
these... we'll bet our cars that you can't play any of them".

Now this wasn't the first time DNephi had done this. On Pianostreet, he kept
claiming over and over that any of my sound files and videos were "sped up".
Fake! That if they were real, I was the greatest living pianist and nobody is
that good.

Frankly, the video didn't even show what I can do technically. That's not
what I was trying to do. I was making music not absloute virtuosity. I always
play well within the technical range of my ability and have plenty of headroom.
Even in the opening notes of my video.

So of course, I became miffed at people telling me what I couldn't play and
willing to wager over it. I accepted all wagers and they didn't respond of
course. I told them for their cars, I'd play all the etudes for them, not just one
of their choice. heck, I'll play them backwards if they want me to if they
want to pay the first year's insurance for me on their cars after I win them.

Anyway, it's out of my hands. Pianoworld banned me.


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#1141275 - 02/22/08 12:20 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Suddenly, DNephi and his pals jumped on me, "You can't play any of
these... we'll bet our cars that you can't play any of them".
Well, that can't have been me. I don't even own a car!


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

#1141276 - 02/22/08 12:49 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by jazzwee:

So that this discussion is not one sided, I will post a message from Disciple:

Quote


Anyway, it's out of my hands. Pianoworld banned me.
Why would Pianoworld ban Disciple? That would be grossly unfair. He has not violated any Pianoworld rules as far as I can tell. Is there something we don't know?


"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP
#1141277 - 02/22/08 01:16 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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This may sound silly, but I don't understand the line, "Anyway, it's out of my hands. Pianoworld banned me."

If Piano World had banned him, how could he be on Piano World saying that Pianoworld had banned him?

Was that a PM? or did he really mean PianoStreet, and Pianoworld came out as a typo.

#1141278 - 02/22/08 01:19 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Dad, this is from a private email he sent me AFTER he was banned. He is reading this thread but can't respond.


Pianoclues.com for Beginners
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Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

#1141279 - 02/22/08 01:22 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by jazzwee:
He is reading this thread but can't respond.
Yikes! This is just too freaky. I'm outta here.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

#1141280 - 02/22/08 01:22 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Now if the arguments occurred on this forum, there probably won't be any banning since there's no active moderator laugh


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#1141281 - 02/22/08 01:24 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
Quote
Originally posted by jazzwee:
[b] Dad, this is from a private email he sent me AFTER he was banned. He is reading this thread but can't respond.
Yikes! This is just too freaky. I'm outta here. [/b]
He!he! You make it sound like there's a ghost out there laugh Klutz, just remember that everything you're writing about technique may still be read a decade from now...


Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

#1141282 - 02/22/08 01:26 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Thank you Jazzwee, but I feel confirmed in my opinion that the main issue was, from the side of Disciple, his proficiency being put into question. Which might be annoying, but again hey, it's the internet....

As far as the betting is concerned, I frankly do not recollect anyone betting his car first against Disciple, whilst I do recollect Disciple offering to bet his own car (or a sizeable amount of money) inviting his opponent to visit home in Queens.

Of course, one can edit messages without this leaving traces in his posting so it might well be that the betting initiative started from disciple's opponents; but still this is what I remember reading and whoever has started with the bet has certainly raised the level of the confrontation beyond the usual disagreement and into a highly emotional terrain.

I also do not think (and this is why I would have liked an intervention from the moderators) that disciple would or should have been banned for what he has publicly written in the discussion; if this was the case was, I beg to differ from the moderator's opinion and allow myself to publicly ask for the readmission of Disciple in this forum.

Anyway the expression "asked to be banned" seems a bit far fetched to me, being to me the same as "decided to leave without anyone forcing him to do so".

---------------------------------------------

My humble suggesion at this point is that Disciple speaks privately with the moderators - if he is in fact banned as opposed to "self-banned" - with a view of coming back to the forum, which I am sure would profit from his presence and his contribution.


"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin
#1141283 - 02/22/08 01:27 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Nonsense, guys. If he was banned, the PM and Profile functions would disappear from his old posts, wouldn't they? I'm quite confident he has not been banned. It's just a lot of phony childish drama.

#1141284 - 02/22/08 01:40 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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I dunno, J. Mark; if you search the community directory for either "Disciple" OR "virtuosic1" (his former login name), his profile doesn't come up. When I search for the name of another prominent former PW member who was banned, it also does not come up. I also don't see any reason why jazzwee would make up story about the email he got from Disciple.

I respected the *content* of what Disciple said, even when I disagreed with it, but I thought he was unnecessarily rude to forum members.


Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
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#1141285 - 02/22/08 01:43 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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In answer to J. Mark, this is his words from another past email. BTW this email exchange happened a couple of days ago so I don't know if he's actively reading this thread or not anymore.

This is the last email exchange we've had and I have no further words from him on this subject. As you can see he encouraged me to post his words.

Quote

Also, maybe you can somehow pass along that I didn't up and decide not to
post anymore. There's alot of people with the erroneous misconception that I left
like a prima donna and took my "toys" with me. I backed away for the evening,
but when I went to post the next day, my account was BANNED. I had to log out
to read the forum. I no longer have posting priviledges on that forum! I'd be
right there if the management didn't decide that they didn't want me.


Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

#1141286 - 02/22/08 01:49 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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He is not been banned. (his account is still working and there's no sign of banning)
On pianostreet Disciple said that he were compelled to ask the moderators to ban him and to delete all his old messages. When all his messages disappeared he said "you see what you made me done?!"

Disciple don't stand criticism (constructive or not) and as soon as it occurs he run away and delete history of his passage. But I wouldn't blame others for this. The post where I and other members have quarrels are all there for anyone to read and I have never asked their removal.

Quote
As far as his disparaging comments about New Age music goes: meh, I don't like it either, whether it's complex or not.


That YOU don't like it is NOT a good reason to defend those who attack it, attack those who like it and gets offensive and aggressive if you disagree. What if something YOU like were attacked? What if you said "wait a moment I don't agree" and that triggered a seried of obnoxious posts on how ignorant you are, how you wouldn't know anyway anyway because you can't play this or that and how you just disagree for the sake of it?

#1141287 - 02/22/08 01:54 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Monica -- that was not the case a couple of days ago when I checked. Who knows. Frankly, who cares? I think I'll return to more pleasant topics.... smile

#1141288 - 02/22/08 02:01 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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that would be the path of wisdom for all of us.

#1141289 - 02/22/08 02:09 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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it IS just alot of phony childish drama. I couldn't agree with you more, J. Mark.
The reason I'M concerned is because PW may have lost an incredibly valuable member with much to share with the community.
I'm not looking to blame, attack, or defend anyone. I just hope the situation can be remedied, that's all.

#1141290 - 02/22/08 03:12 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by pastafarian:
Riddler's idea is a good one, though I , for one, am probably too much of a beginner to profit fom most of his more insightful comments, particualrly in the area of jazz harmony.

I have read his threads and find nothing offensive in them, but then my ego is not at stake when someone claims to have played Chopin's Etudes as a child, because I can't play any of them and so have no pretensions of pianistic competence. I read it and think: "Wow, good for him(her).I suppose that's the level of techinical skill the elite players need."
And then "Of course this is the internet, so the claim might be nonsense..." and have lost nothing. I watched his video playing Tristano and thought: "Yeah, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.", whereas the sceptics have offered nothing but talk, which is cheap.

As far as his disparaging comments about New Age music goes: meh, I don't like it either, whether it's complex or not.
I loathe Sorabji and love twelve-bar, three-chord blues: pile on the contempt, I won't take it personally and it won't make me reach for a Stravinsky CD over Muddy Waters.


I think Piano Dad's post illustrates the core subtext: people whose ego is tied up in their aesthetic judgements. Grow up.

I don't see Disciple as in the wrong here at all. He backed up his assertions with reasons, and as far as I saw he never attacked a poster personally except in self-defence and if he criticized someone's favourite type of music or composer, it was on grounds of musical sophistication, which adults know is independent of aesthetic value, which is subjective. Period.

My reading of this whole thing is that a few people whose egos are tied up in being the "big experts on the block", could not handle competition from an idiosyncratic outsider who bucked conventional wisdom and, perhaps indelicately, made hamburger of a few sacred cows.
That's exactly right.


Casio PX-360 digital piano, Mojo 61 digital organ, 1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.
#1141291 - 02/22/08 04:08 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Agreed.


-----------
Oh, life is a glorious cycle of song,
A medley of extemporanea;
And love is a thing that can never go wrong,
And I am Marie of Romania.
#1141292 - 02/22/08 04:29 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by Innominato:
As far as the betting is concerned, I frankly do not recollect anyone betting his car first against Disciple, whilst I do recollect Disciple offering to bet his own car (or a sizeable amount of money) inviting his opponent to visit home in Queens.
Actually btb first makes the comment. However, I don't think the intention was to seriously propose a wager, more to emphasize the magnitude in which btb felt that Disciple was overstating his claims.

Personally I would have loved it if someone would have taken him up on his offer. Actually, not necessarily the actual bet, but if someone could have offered to come over and record the challenge. If Disciple was speaking the truth, he would then have video evidence and could hopefully then simple point anyone to the video and ignore them.

#1141293 - 02/22/08 04:35 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by bitWrangler:
[QUOTE] Personally I would have loved it if someone would have taken him up on his offer.
Someone did on piano street (he made the identical offer) but I don't think anything occurred eventually.

#1141294 - 02/22/08 04:55 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Banned
More hearsay in an attempt to smear somebody who is gone. And "btb" the chappie started all that betting nonsense more than once.


Roland FP-4 digital piano, Mason & Hamlin acoustic piano.
#1141295 - 02/22/08 06:19 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by pastafarian:
....As far as his disparaging comments about New Age music goes: meh, I don't like it either, whether it's complex or not.
I loathe Sorabji and love twelve-bar, three-chord blues: pile on the contempt, I won't take it personally and it won't make me reach for a Stravinsky CD over Muddy Waters.....


Hi, pastofarian.

I don't have a problem with people saying they don't like something. For instance, your comment that you "loathe Sorabji.." - I think that's fine. You are clearly stating your opinion. We're all entitled to that. If someone wants to say they "loathe" some musician/composer I like, well their entitled, that's their opinion.

To me there's a world of difference between how you expressed your opinion and how Virtuosic1 expressed his.

Virtuosic1 went on to demean and belittle. That's what I take exception to.

People who TRASH other people's work, etc., that's what I have a problem with.

Jeanne W


Music is about the heart and so should a piano be about the heart. - Pique

1920 Steinway A3
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#1141296 - 02/22/08 07:55 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
That YOU don't like it is NOT a good reason to defend those who attack it, attack those who like it and gets offensive and aggressive if you disagree. What if something YOU like were attacked? What if you said "wait a moment I don't agree" and that triggered a seried of obnoxious posts on how ignorant you are, how you wouldn't know anyway anyway because you can't play this or that and how you just disagree for the sake of it?
Quote
I don't have a problem with people saying they don't like something. For instance, your comment that you "loathe Sorabji.." - I think that's fine. You are clearly stating your opinion. We're all entitled to that. If someone wants to say they "loathe" some musician/composer I like, well their entitled, that's their opinion.

To me there's a world of difference between how you expressed your opinion and how Virtuosic1 expressed his.

Virtuosic1 went on to demean and belittle. That's what I take exception to.

People who TRASH other people's work, etc., that's what I have a problem with.

Jeanne W
Hi Jeanne W, I guess I'll respond to these together. I agree with the first sentence. I didn't mean to suggest that. I was just being up front with my biases.

Had he said the same thing about the blues, I would have thought "Too bad for him that he can't appreciate the emotional depth in simple (simplistic?) musical forms." You could say the same for me wrt New Age and most of what ends up calssified as "Easy Listening" or "Adult Contemporary".

I thought he adopted a somewhat conciliatory tone with Monica K when it came to New Age music in general. I have to say I have heard nothing of the work of the composer he savaged, but most of what I have read of his musical analysis seemed considered and based on a fair bit of knowledge and experience. Doesn't make it The Truth, but makes it worth considering.

If you were offended by his manner, then you were offended. I suppose that makes him "offensive". I didn't find him that way but as you rightly point out, I never engaged him directly and he didn't insult me.

All that being said, the purpose of my defence of him is simple: I believe that he offered valuable lessons for those who shared his love of jazz and were able to profit from his insights. There is so much chaff on the internet particulalry on discussion forums, that any wheat should be treasured.

I have also learned that one needs a certain thickness of skin to post on forums. I try not to gratuitously offend people, but I have been on the receiving end of pretty insulting stuff. I reckon it goes with the anonymity of the medium.


Without music life would be a mistake
-- Friedrich Nietzsche
#1141297 - 02/22/08 09:56 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Certainly there was poor behavior by a number of parties in the thread in question but I am personally of the opinion that banning Disciple is a punishment that vastly exceeds his crimes. It is probable that the majority of people on the classical forum have not seen the numerous lengthy and insightful threads that Disciple has started here in the non-classical forum and as such are not aware of his valuable contributions. I for one am prepared to look past his less than polite behavior (he is not alone in this category) in order to benefit from his thoughts on music theory, piano technique, and whatever other relevant topics he chooses to share with us. If he has in fact been banned I would urge the powers that be to revoke this punishment. The forum may be more contentious as a result, but it will also be richer for his contributions.

Marc


Jazz pianist and teacher.

http://www.marchager.com
#1141298 - 02/22/08 10:04 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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hi, pastafarian:

you are right - some people's skins ARE thicker than others. I don't quite understand how anyone could NOT be offended by some of the things Virtuosic1 said. I do, however, agree with those who believe Disciple was treated harshly by some members on the classical forum. Seems to me some members went off and lunged for Disciple's jugular without much provocation. But then, Disciple returned the favor, didn't he?

As others have noted, it seems there are some pretty big egos in the classical forum and it can get pretty brutal over there. Jealousy and insecurity sometimes seem to rule. On the other hand, someone who comes onto the forum with claims of superhuman pianistical feats, is setting themselves up as a target. People are going to start wondering and asking questions.

wavelength:

Earlier in this thread I asked:

"what amount of *stuff* are/should we be willing to put up with for the sake of talent, knowledge, expertise? At what point does it - a person, sorry to say - become just not worth it?"

You asked if "the *stuff*" I'm talking about is someone saying they don't like a particular piano player, and added that "…doing without that *stuff* would reduce the discussion to triviality."

No, I was not talking about differences of opinions or likes and dislikes. I agree with you that differences of opinion can make for lively, intelligent conversations. And I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me or like the same music as me or get upset when people say they don't like or even "loathe" something I like. I'm talking about how a person expresses himself. There is a difference between a respectful discussion and disrespectful and mean-spirited one.

Jeanne W


Music is about the heart and so should a piano be about the heart. - Pique

1920 Steinway A3
My Piano Delivery Thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/8776.html#000000
#1141299 - 02/23/08 03:21 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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We are not worthy.

#1141300 - 02/23/08 05:50 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by Pete the bean:
We are not worthy.
???

laugh

Jeanne W


Music is about the heart and so should a piano be about the heart. - Pique

1920 Steinway A3
My Piano Delivery Thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/8776.html#000000
#1141301 - 02/23/08 04:22 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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People are projecting things and taking things too personally.


Casio PX-360 digital piano, Mojo 61 digital organ, 1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.
#1141302 - 02/24/08 01:06 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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I don't care for the controversy. Scratch that, actually I don't mind a little controversy, I just don't really have much time to properly get into it...

Anyways, I enjoyed his posts enough to print a few off and am grateful for the free information. So, his manner can get under peoples skin? That's unfortunate, perhaps a future return can be possible. But I remember him mentioning about writing a book, and I would waste no time ordering my copy if it were to happen. A book is an equitable way of sharing knowledge, without the bother of dealing with talkback and personality clashes.

#1141303 - 02/24/08 03:16 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Hi,

I would like to express my absolute outrage.... mad

... that I've no idea who Disciple is or was, and must have missed all the fun, drama and ego wrestling...

Not hanging out in the right places obviously. Ah well, back to making music for me...

Chris


Who needs feet of clay? I can get into enough trouble with feet made of regular foot stuff...
#1141304 - 02/24/08 07:30 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by Late Beginner:
... that I've no idea who Disciple is or was, and must have missed all the fun, drama and ego wrestling...
You wanna believe it:
Quote
Originally posted by AJB:
Without pointing any fingers, it reminds me of the old saying:

ARGUING WITH SOME POSTERS HERE IS A LOT LIKE WRESTLING IN THE MUD WITH A PIG. AFTER A FEW HOURS YOU REALIZE THE PIG LIKES IT.

:-)

A


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#1141305 - 02/24/08 08:48 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Is this necessary?
:-(

#1141306 - 02/24/08 09:24 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE YELLING ABOUT!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_T-jpOb_9ZM

#1141307 - 02/24/08 03:49 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Yes, yes, yes, Debussy20,

Laughter is the only thing that can save us from ourselves.

BTW, when the angels are hanging out, they play Bach's Chaconne.

Ed


http://edsjazzpianopage.blogspot.com/

My fingers are slow, but easily keep pace with my thoughts.

#1141308 - 02/24/08 03:56 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Disciple was like the Marlon Brando of posters here, a mercurial genius. Now I am reduced to reading posts by the Kevin Costners and their ordinary insights.


Casio PX-360 digital piano, Mojo 61 digital organ, 1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.
#1141309 - 02/24/08 06:01 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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rintincop,

With just a few points and clicks, anyone can start a Google Group. You can control access, so you can limit invitations to only those you want to include. Be your own moderator, if you like. Why not set up something like alt.tristano, or rec.music.tristano?

How about alt.mercurial-geniuses?

(Sorry, I can never resist a joke.)

Seriously, rintincop, I respect you immensely and I'm in awe of Disciple's talents and the contributions he has made here. I'm not trying to trivialize this thing.

Ed


http://edsjazzpianopage.blogspot.com/

My fingers are slow, but easily keep pace with my thoughts.

#1141310 - 02/24/08 11:39 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Disciple was banned not because of the "Chopin/Liszt" thread, but because he bumped several threads to make personal attacks on other posters. We all fly off the handle every now and then (after all, it's the INTERNET!); however, spamming the forum with insults is simply unacceptable.

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/2/16868/2.html#000029
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/2/16830.html#000023
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/2/16887/2.html#000036
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/2/16897.html#000021
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/2/17073.html#000014
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/2/17052/2.html#000027

A poster who went under the pseudonyms "Steinway" and "B-flat Minor" did the same thing a few years ago and we banned him as well. Disciple is obviously a fine pianist and musician, but that doesn't excuse acting in such a manner.

#1141311 - 02/25/08 01:09 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Just want to point out something that I found interesting:

Disciple was born in 1965 per his profile. Lennie Tristano died in 1978, when Disciple was 13 years old. In one of his posts, Disciple says:

"Lennie Tristano had me playing the Chopin Etudes in every key by the age of 15 as technical exercises, many AT and well beyond prescribed tempos."

Lennie Tristano was dead for 2 years before he had Disciple playing the Chopin Etudes in every key, etc. So, from that, one could either infer that Disciple was actually playing these pieces at the age of 13 (when Lennie was still alive); or that somehow between 13 and 15, he managed to coach himself from the basis he received from Lennie? Just wanted to point this out to the King of Greece, etc.


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#1141312 - 02/25/08 02:12 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by Secondo:
Just want to point out something that I found interesting:

Disciple was born in 1965 per his profile. Lennie Tristano died in 1978, when Disciple was 13 years old. In one of his posts, Disciple says:

"Lennie Tristano had me playing the Chopin Etudes in every key by the age of 15 as technical exercises, many AT and well beyond prescribed tempos."

Lennie Tristano was dead for 2 years before he had Disciple playing the Chopin Etudes in every key, etc. So, from that, one could either infer that Disciple was actually playing these pieces at the age of 13 (when Lennie was still alive); or that somehow between 13 and 15, he managed to coach himself from the basis he received from Lennie? Just wanted to point this out to the King of Greece, etc.
You are so off Secondo. He's stated his age already on this forum as mid-fifties. 1965 would put him at early forties. You're OVER a decade off.


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#1141313 - 02/25/08 02:16 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Profile for Disciple
Member Status: Full Member
Member Number: 22236
Registered: March 27, 2007
Posts: 288
Location: NYC
Occupation: Musician
Interests: music
Birth Date: October 14, 1965
What brand(s) of piano do you own?: Yamaha C3

This is lifted from his profile. Check it.


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#1141314 - 02/25/08 02:20 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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It is not correct, he stated his actual age several times. It could be a typo. It could be 1955, that would be in the ballpark.

In a private email we were discussing his age in relation to someone I know in jazz and he said they're about the same age.


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#1141315 - 02/25/08 02:32 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Could be. Just something I noticed. And when I looked at his Youtube recording he looked to me like a male in his early 40's, esp to look at his hands. (I am in my mid-50's)


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#1141316 - 02/25/08 03:11 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Thanks Brendan for the moderator "big heave" explanation.

I'm sure we've all got much bigger fish to fry than to get scratchy over a chappie who insinuated that he could play all the Chopin Etudes ... some of us saw through the aggrandising pitch.

From my corner it wasn't the questioned ability to play any Etude ... it was the giveaway presumption that the Etudes are anything more than Studies ... mostly lacking the charm of the works in which the constructions were later used ... as such , we are talking about a fleet-fingered dude who presently lacks the musical insight to hit the big-time.

As the word implies Etude is a Study ... Chopin was ever experimenting with structural forms ranging over the full keyboard ... his genius has led to later generations expressing such awe at the gymnastics of these experimental "bridge-building" exercises ... that general consensus would appear to have us promote Etudes to that of masterpiece ... but it's rather like finding in some dusty attic a preparatory charcoal sketch of "The Reconciliation of David and Absolom" by Rembrandt ... (we must be so lucky!) and ignoring "The Night Watch".

Etudes are Studies ... with glimpses of rhythmic structures later included in bigger works ... great for developing nimble fingers but what really counts is how the pianist interprets a Chopin Nocturne.

#1141317 - 02/25/08 03:28 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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I think it was the throwaway '..and all the Godowsky studies..' that got me.


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#1141318 - 02/25/08 06:47 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by btb:
Thanks Brendan for the moderator "big heave" explanation.

I'm sure we've all got much bigger fish to fry than to get scratchy over a chappie who insinuated that he could play all the Chopin Etudes ... some of us saw through the aggrandising pitch.

From my corner it wasn't the questioned ability to play any Etude ... it was the giveaway presumption that the Etudes are anything more than Studies ... mostly lacking the charm of the works in which the constructions were later used ... as such , we are talking about a fleet-fingered dude who presently lacks the musical insight to hit the big-time.

As the word implies Etude is a Study ... Chopin was ever experimenting with structural forms ranging over the full keyboard ... his genius has led to later generations expressing such awe at the gymnastics of these experimental "bridge-building" exercises ... that general consensus would appear to have us promote Etudes to that of masterpiece ... but it's rather like finding in some dusty attic a preparatory charcoal sketch of "The Reconciliation of David and Absolom" by Rembrandt ... (we must be so lucky!) and ignoring "The Night Watch".

Etudes are Studies ... with glimpses of rhythmic structures later included in bigger works ... great for developing nimble fingers but what really counts is how the pianist interprets a Chopin Nocturne.
I am lucky enough to study jazz and piano with Disciple/Virtuosic1. On and off for the past 20 years. I started to read this forum about 2 months ago at his recommendantion. From my recollection, you are the one that wagered your car that he could not play a Chopin Etude of your choice.
If I recall, he accepted your challenge and you never replied. Come to think of it, now that he has been banned, this is the first time you have once again spoken on this subject. Are you going to honor your wager that he accepted. Or have you no honor?

#1141319 - 02/25/08 07:00 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
I think it was the throwaway '..and all the Godowsky studies..' that got me.
Sitting on one of the many shelves in Disciples home are about a half dozen manuscript books containing incredible variations on Chopin Etudes that he wrote. Some mild and some fantastically wild. Some appear to be unplayable by a single pianist, but he can play them all. Some of them make the Godowski Etudes, which I cannot play but have recordings of, sound simple. One of them is poly-metric, another a 10 voice fugue, another has fast moving block-like chords based on the melody that sound like a Stan Kenton horn section with impossible counter-figures in the left hand. Things that you can close your eyes and imagine 2 or 3 pianists playing.
If anybody wants to stand behind their criticism and challenges of Disciples abilities and honor their bets, please count me in for a piece of the action.

#1141320 - 02/25/08 07:06 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by jazzwee:
It is not correct, he stated his actual age several times. It could be a typo. It could be 1955, that would be in the ballpark.

In a private email we were discussing his age in relation to someone I know in jazz and he said they're about the same age.
Disciple was born in 1953.

#1141321 - 02/25/08 07:21 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by btb:
we are talking about a fleet-fingered dude who presently lacks the musical insight to hit the big-time.

And you know that he lacks insight? Based on what?
He doesn't want the big-time. He was there, could have stayed there and was uncomfortable with the big-time. Preferred the small time teaching and doing studio work. As far as fleet fingered, I had no concept of how fast fingers can play lines until I saw it with my own eyes.
There does not seem to be a technical limit to what he can play and he rarely practices. He can chord faster than most pianists can play single note lines. I'm proud to be his student and most importantly, he is a great teacher. I always learn something new every time I see him.

#1141322 - 02/25/08 08:00 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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#1141323 - 02/25/08 08:49 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Where did you get that popcorn? I want some too!


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#1141324 - 02/25/08 08:52 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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BJ were you born in 1974, or is that a typo?


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#1141325 - 02/25/08 10:26 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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BJ, Tell us more about your "teacher"

#1141326 - 02/25/08 10:35 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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BJ I think he lost his honour somewhere amidst insulting Disciple....

#1141327 - 02/25/08 11:42 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by Debussy20:
BJ, Tell us more about your "teacher"
What would you like to know? What are you inferring by putting parentheses around "teacher"? That I'm him? That I'm posting at his behest? Why is it that everyone on this forum seems hellbent on wiping their jackboots on him with lies and innuendos? Then when someone who studies with him posts the truth, there's a problem? I've never heard of such nonsense and I know that I will probably be banned for not bashing him with the rest of you. Tell your moderators to check my IP and ISP if you think I'm him

#1141328 - 02/25/08 11:45 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by Secondo:
BJ were you born in 1974, or is that a typo?
Are you conducting a census? I am an adult. What personal information do you require of me?

#1141329 - 02/25/08 11:55 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by Debussy20:
BJ, Tell us more about your "teacher"
We should talk about his youtube video. The one that you do not think much of and base your opinions of him as a mediocre pianist on. Do you understand the music he is playing. The harmonies and control. The voice leading? We should analyze it together and see first hand how "simple" and mundane it is. I have a hard time putting together 4 bars of music like that without sitting down for a week to carefully work it out, then figure out how to play it. he can do it on the fly, right out of his head. As simple and mundane as it seems to you, to jazz players it is not.

#1141330 - 02/25/08 11:55 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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This is a waste of time.

#1141331 - 02/25/08 11:57 PM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by Debussy20:
This is a waste of time.
I imagine It wasn't a waste of time though to wipe your jack boots off on Disciple, was it? Without anyone to challenge you. How sad that you feel better about yourself by doing that.

#1141332 - 02/26/08 12:20 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by Debussy20:
This is a waste of time.
Matthew, I just watched your youtube videos and after doing so find it proposterous that you would badmouth and criticize Disciples technique.

#1141333 - 02/26/08 01:08 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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I think worshipping is another form of discrimination. You divinize the person instead of seein him or her as human being with his or her merits and faults. So it's sad of the see Disciple student speak of his teacher as some kind of demi-human robot of music. Unless this student is actually Disciple himself.

#1141334 - 02/26/08 02:00 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Yikes! Son of Disciple! I'm off (again).


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#1141335 - 02/26/08 02:42 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by BJones:
Quote
Originally posted by Debussy20:
This is a waste of time.
Matthew, I just watched your youtube videos and after doing so find it proposterous that you would badmouth and criticize Disciples technique.
That does it. I've tried to avoid this damned silly thread, but alas it keeps coming up on the side bar. BJones, the great student of the even greater Disciple.

You truly follow in the steps of the "master" and have started taking self-satisfied pot shots at everyone in sight. Why don't you get a life, buddy, and stop wasting everybody's time.

You are a real pompous piece of work.


Jason
#1141336 - 02/26/08 06:39 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by BJones:
Quote
Originally posted by Debussy20:
[b] This is a waste of time.
Matthew, I just watched your youtube videos and after doing so find it proposterous that you would badmouth and criticize Disciples technique. [/b]
I have never communicated with Disciples nor said one word to him on this entire forum. I've read some of his posts and some seem very snobbish and immature. I'd like to think at 14, I know the difference between what's acceptable and what isn't in forum posts; some older people still apparently don't.

As for my technique... I've only been playing.. hmmm.... 40 years less than him. I don't care how good and great he is, he has no reason to act like that and you have no reason to pick on me like this.
Matt

#1141337 - 02/26/08 07:44 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by argerichfan:
Quote
Originally posted by BJones:
Quote
Originally posted by Debussy20:
This is a waste of time.
Matthew, I just watched your youtube videos and after doing so find it proposterous that you would badmouth and criticize Disciples technique.
That does it. I've tried to avoid this damned silly thread, but alas it keeps coming up on the side bar. BJones, the great student of the even greater Disciple.

You truly follow in the steps of the "master" and have started taking self-satisfied pot shots at everyone in sight. Why don't you get a life, buddy, and stop wasting everybody's time.

You are a real pompous piece of work.
And it's not pompous for you to contend what he can and can't play? You are the one taking pot shots at his playing. For me to say that his technique is unmatched is pompous? That's my opinion. Your opinioon is that he's a lousy pianistr with severe limitations, even though his video shows otherwise. My opinion is the opposite of yours. If I said, "Argerich has the finest technique in the world" there wouldn't be a problem. If I say, Disciple can play things that she probably hasn't thought of, then we have a problem. Why do you feel that you must be the judge of what I think? I see the man every week. I'm always awed when he plays something. That's why I've studied with him since I was 14.

#1141338 - 02/26/08 07:53 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by Debussy20:
Quote
Originally posted by BJones:
[b]
Quote
Originally posted by Debussy20:
[b] This is a waste of time.
Matthew, I just watched your youtube videos and after doing so find it proposterous that you would badmouth and criticize Disciples technique. [/b]
I have never communicated with Disciples nor said one word to him on this entire forum. I've read some of his posts and some seem very snobbish and immature. I'd like to think at 14, I know the difference between what's acceptable and what isn't in forum posts; some older people still apparently don't.

As for my technique... I've only been playing.. hmmm.... 40 years less than him. I don't care how good and great he is, he has no reason to act like that and you have no reason to pick on me like this.
Matt [/b]
I'm not picking on you. I expressed my opinion on your playing. I'm sorry if it didn't meet with your expectations. Over a dozen members have posted various negative comments about Disciples playing, some I'm sure that never even saw his video. Most of you are of the opinion that he's a lousy pianist incapable of bumbling his way through a classical piece. If I don't share that opinion, why is it picking on you? If my opinion of your playing is that you aren't qualified to bash Disciples technique, am I not entitled to that opinion? You're all entuitiled to say Disciple can't play, I can't say that you're all wrong. Just watch his video. Anyone thats ever sat at a keyboard should be able to tell that he can play the piano. I've posted on jaz forums before. Ive never seen such a rush to bash someone's abilities before anywhere.

#1141339 - 02/26/08 08:01 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by argerichfan:
Quote
Originally posted by BJones:
Quote
Originally posted by Debussy20:
This is a waste of time.
Matthew, I just watched your youtube videos and after doing so find it proposterous that you would badmouth and criticize Disciples technique.
That does it. I've tried to avoid this damned silly thread, but alas it keeps coming up on the side bar. BJones, the great student of the even greater Disciple.

You truly follow in the steps of the "master" and have started taking self-satisfied pot shots at everyone in sight. Why don't you get a life, buddy, and stop wasting everybody's time.

You are a real pompous piece of work.
Why don't we look at 3 miniutes of Disciples playing:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5C5gnAqgttY&feature=user

Can someone please explain to me why the general opinion here is that he's a hack as a pianist with very limited technique and you all feel that his playing should be openly trashed on this forum?

#1141340 - 02/26/08 08:05 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Quote
Originally posted by argerichfan:
Quote
Originally posted by BJones:
Quote
Originally posted by Debussy20:
This is a waste of time.
Matthew, I just watched your youtube videos and after doing so find it proposterous that you would badmouth and criticize Disciples technique.
That does it. I've tried to avoid this damned silly thread, but alas it keeps coming up on the side bar. BJones, the great student of the even greater Disciple.

You truly follow in the steps of the "master" and have started taking self-satisfied pot shots at everyone in sight. Why don't you get a life, buddy, and stop wasting everybody's time.

You are a real pompous piece of work.
I didn't say I'm great. I'm good, not great. But I know my limitations. Do you have limitations? Or do you really think you're good enough to bash Disciples playing on a daily basis? I don't know of anyone who's ever heard him and walked away shaking their heads, "That dude is terrible, worst pianist I've ever heard". Only here have I heard that about his playing. Only here is everybodys playing unmatched.

#1141341 - 02/26/08 08:36 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Mr. Jones,

Just where did Matthew bad mouth Disciples technique?


Brendan, Ken, anybody?

Does this thread need to continue? It is now a platform for truly childish behavior and ego-pumping nonsense. I don't care if you love the guy or he disgusts you, it should be plain to the meanest intelligence that many (most?) of you are truly behaving down to the lowest common denominator the medium encourages. For instance: Hey btb, why do you continue to bait this guy by launching meaningless challenges written in your usual barely-decipherable pseudo-poetic (!) garble? So you think the guy can't play that stuff. Why? You've never presented a scintilla of evidence (other than said garble). And why do you have to drip sarcasm all over this forum. Posts like yours, coupled with Disciples' volcanic and immature responses make great theatre for you?

#1141342 - 02/26/08 08:41 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Enough.

Take it to private messages or off the board completely.

#1141343 - 02/26/08 08:42 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Hi BJones,

I admire your spirit in defending your teacher but you are doing so in a completely uninformed manner that is not doing him or you any good at all.

As far as I know everybody here agrees that Disciple is a very good pianist - it was just his manner that wound some people up. At which point he decided to 'throw out this toys' and post a series of personal attacks against a particular member - which is what got him banned. You need to get your facts right before slating everybody here in such a generic way.

And BTW, you do owe young Matt an apology. As he said, he's never communicated with Disciple, so you cannot justify finding it "proposterous that you [Matt] would badmouth and criticize Disciples technique" - since clearely he has not.

Oops, the "Enough" wasn't there when I posted; let me know if you want me to edit my msg away...

#1141344 - 02/26/08 08:49 AM Re: Disciple has been driven off  
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Will a moderator please step up and do something. This is embarrassing. Six pages?


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New Topics - Multiple Forums
Possible Savings on an ETD App
by DavidWB. 11/18/17 10:16 PM
Pianoteq 6 Recording Function Glitch
by newbert. 11/18/17 04:10 PM
collapsing pinky
by Muove. 11/18/17 02:22 PM
DP-10X built in speakers for Pianoteq?
by Tim1981. 11/18/17 12:16 PM
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