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Hi there. Just poking my head through the curtain from the coach section (Adult beginner's forum). I just started playing piano 6 weeks ago (49 years guitar). I'm into the Sudnow method and really love the results so far, and the promises the course makes are very seductive. I'm practicing 2+ hours per day, and am already pretty into both hand palying cool, non "Mary Had a Little Lamb" stuff, all the scales, and understanding what's going on with his Bill Evans-style voicings.

Did anyone out there launch or augment their piano playing life with the Sudnow method?

Just as a matter of interest what is the Sudnow method please?

Alan

Hello Alan,
I hope I paraphrase the Sudnow method to the satisfaction of Mr Sudnow. Well, here goes...

The method essentials, to me, firstly, allow one to look at a chord line and a simple melody line, as in a fake book, and instantly play them, with both hands, with luscious chords. This is done in a formulaic way.

According to Mr Sudnow, and I have no reason to disbelieve this promise, even a neophyte, in 1-2 years will be able to think of a song and play the same types of pretty sounds without needing to look at any music. This facility should come sooner to those with piano experience.

He illustrates a transposable chord progression which is common to most Western music "jazz standards" which enables this facility.

He is dogmatic. His course is available via the www. It consists of a DVD, several CDs, and over 100 pages of download text, as well as a number of index-sized cards which synopsize his method.

I started with Sudnow.
I'm 42 years old and had never played the piano before.
I went to the Sudnow seminar in Dallas, TX last weekend Sept. 2004. I've been practicing about an hour a day and I'm up to my 6th song. I haven't worked any of the voicings myself yet though.Bought two of the dot books with CD's.
I feel great about my progress and my results.
My family enjoys listening to what I play which is really satisfying.
I think it's a great way to learn fast and sound good really progressing in your music knowledge.

Have fun,

Paret,

Glad to hear your enthusiasm and perseverance have paid off in such a short period of time. The voicing bit is going to be a lot of work, but maybe after I get a lot of songs under my belt it'll flow.

Have you picked up the Bill Evans Live at the Village Vanguard CD? If I didn't know better, I'd say that ol' maestro had started with the Sudnow technique. This CD's the easiest sound I've experienced in a long time.

I find it hard to believe that only you and I, of the thousands in this forum, started with the Sudnow technique. If that's the case, let's keep it a secret...we'll get all the jobs someday soon!

Enjoy, compadre!

Footom, Thanks for the explanation, I may purchase the DVD and others CD,s The experience may well help my never ending quest to play better every day.

I have the Bill Evans DVD called 'The Universal Mind of Bill Evans' by EFORFILMS, A 1966 documentary.

I don't have that Evans CD. Where did you get it?

i got the sudnow method yesterday 2/14/05. listened to all the cd's that night..3.5 hrs..and did a little bit of work at the keys.

2/15 - started the first song...spend 4.5 hours between working on misty and some of my classical pieces. mostly i was doing sudnow's method. I'm through the first 3 pages of the song. i think david has a sound methodology...but the funny thing is you just can never get around having to put in the time...and there will always be frustration. But over time let's all hope that we find the shortest path between two points...may all our practice time be well spent and focused.

Although classical and contemporary styles clash in terms of how the brain processes the activities, I still think they complement each other...the only caveat is time...i don't know how many more 4.5 hr nights i can stand at the keys..esp. after working 10 hrs..

BUT IT IS FUN..PIANO IS FUN..I ENJOY PIANO..YEAH THAT'S IT..

I love this stuff....

see positive reinforcement is a great thing

Just to update...again, I'm a novice at this, but the voicings are not really that tough. I pulled out a couple fake books and have voiced "Emily" and "All the Things You Are".

Sudnow's extremely detailed instructions are at once reassuring and off-putting. However, I found using his formulae as guidelines, and my ears (and mood) as the final decision making criteria for the voicings, it's really extremely easy.

I'm thrilled, and will continue studying the fine points of his course as I get bored with my own little exploits.

I feel like I'm out in the cold a little doing back to back postings but in addition to "Emily "and "All The Things You Are" I've just voiced "I Loves You Porgy" and "(I'll Take) Manhattan" using the Sudnow method and they sound beautiful. No BS.

Hello All,

Another prospective Sudnowite here. I've had the materials about the same length of time as you, footom, but I'm not nearly as far along. I think that is simply because of the amount of time I've had (or haven't had) to invest in the course.

I do think that the method is sound and I do intend to pursue it more vigorously as my job permits. I may try to hook up with Mr. Sudnow when he swings through Texas on his one-on-one tour, even though I am a rank beginner. Can't hurt.

And, Paret, I'm not too far from your neighborhood, down here in Glen Rose.

Off to FTW to find the Evans CD.
Bill

Hello AB Forum, Footom, and Harrison,

I purchased the Sudnow course yesterday, and am waiting for it in the mail.

I've played organ in my church for three years, yet I want to get into this piano thing. I'm basicly "self taught". I just really want to improve my playing and learn techs better.

I work for a great Boss. I want to do my best for Him.

Enjoy reading this forum everyday!
YeCats

Ummmmmm ....and thats the non classical forum too ;-)

Ye

Good thing Harrison. Maybe we can get together.
I'm in for the Private lesson with David when he comes to Texas.

Footom would you share some of your voicings?

Maybe send me an e-mail?

Let me know.

Sure, I'd love to share my voicings. These are first efforts of a 10-week piano player, and here and there really call out for tweaking. But, you know, let me tell you a quick story...

We had pals over tonite for dinner. She took piano lessons as a child, and has had lessons on and off for many years. She hasn't played for ten years, and has been taking lessons again with a teacher for four months. You wouldn't think a pup like me could hold a candle to her, only ten weeks into touching the ivories with any semblance of organization. But I played Porgy tonight, and she tried our piano and played a pop song as her teacher taught her. I culled my voicing from a fake book, using David's formula. My pal's playing sounded extremely basic, just single notes right hand and chords left hand. My Porgy sounded like I'd been the one who'd played since I was a kid. I tried to tell her to use the Sudnow technique, and she just brushed it off as too much work! She's put in a hundred times more work than me, and I have so much more to show for it. She's got a love for piano, and I'm going to encourage her to take Sudnow. She'll fly past me in no time if she does, as she should.

Now Paret, as far as sharing my voicings. What's the best way for me to get what I put on the dot diagrams to you? I wouldn't mind posting them on this forum. Is there a way to get diagrams on this page? Is it legal?

Just received notification from pianoworld that my Porgy voicing is at:

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/porgy.gif

I'll get some more voicings out when I cyberize them.

Tried purchasing "When Sunny Gets Blue" thru 2 different download services. Paid twice, lost both times...no download. I'll try to figure out the chord pattern myself for now.

BTW, I got the Bill Evans CD at Virgin Records in NYC. There's a lot of Bill Evans stuff available on the web.

Thanks for sharing Footom!!

Cool story too.

I haven't voiced anything myself yet. Just learning a few of the songs from David's CD's and Dot books.

As soon as I get one done I'll share it with you.

It might be a while though.

Funny how you can sound better than a "more experienced player". That's great.

OK,.... How about some details....

How does this Sudnow method work? Obviously I'm not looking to give away the trade secrets but I'm curious as to the basics.

Rodney

Hello Rodney,

Just to add a bit more detail than you'll find from my posting at the top of this thread...

Dave Sudnow came up with a formula. He bases it on breaking all chords down into three categories: major, dominant seventh, and minor seventh. For each of these categories, there is a formula, using certain notes based upon the scale of the root note. You do not play your basic textbook chord, but a chord derived from his formula. It may even sound dissonant sometimes, but it always sounds good. You put the melody note on top of his chord. This all you do with the right hand. With the left hand, you play two notes: root and either 5th, flatted seventh, or octave, again depending on which one of the chord types.

You have to know your scales backwards and forwards for this all to fly.

To summarize, you look at a simple fake book line, basic chord and one note melody, and after you apply his formula, you sound like Bill Evans is your teacher. You may be slow, but the sound is there.

After you develop a familiarity with this method, which he calls "voicing", you begin to see what he describes as a "universal pattern in Western music". He has a flow chart of chords, transposable into any key, which characterize the way we should think when we try to figure out the next chord in any jazz standard. It leads your mind to the next chord. Through this, you only have to know how the melody goes, and you can predict the next chord in a song. Thus, after a while, you don't even need a fake book anymore, just familiarity with the sound of the tune.

By the way, he doesn't use notes. He uses picture diagrams of the scales and his voicings. You don't even have to be able to read musical notation to learn music theory with this method.

I've been looking for shortcuts to get rapidly into piano, as I'm a professional-level guitarist with arthritic thumbs which hurt after 20 minutes guitar playing. I didn't want to have to go through Michael Row the Boat Ashore for two years on the piano. I didn't with this method. Ten weeks into it and I feel I have a real command of the sounds I always wanted to make.

I highly recommend this course.

Out of curiosity I looked at the website. I didn't realize it when I read this post, but Sudnow wrote the book "Ways of the Hand" which I read quite some time back. I remember him continually trying to learn improvistion, playing without music, and looking for interesting sounding "patterns" when he played. It's cool to see that a method came about because of all of this.

What happened to the forums on the Sudnow website? I went there today and they were gone. I bought the course, but I have not started it yet. Does anyone know if the forums there have been moved? Thanks.

Same thing happened to me today. I'll try to e-mail David and see what the problem is.

In the meantime if anyone finds out please post.

Thank you,

Hi HMR516 and Luis,

I just accessed the Sudnow forums, closed down, and reaccessed them, no problems at:

http://www.sudnow.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi

Try it and let me know.

tom

Hi there,

I checked this morning and the forums were not available. I received the following e-mail from David Sudnow this morning:

"The forums are in the process of being thoroughly reorganized. You'll receive an email when it is up and running again".

When I see they are back up, I will leave a note here.

you can access them via the questions section ,keep continueing and they will appear top right

I've got "When Sunny Gets Blue", "Emily", and "I Loves You Porgy" dot-voiced. If anyone's interested, I'll cyberize and upload.

That'd be great, footom. Please do.
~kat (still struggling with voicing)

OK they're in the works!

I just received the course and am listening to the CDs. Sounds very interesting.

Bob

I just got the course in the mail. Planning to do the listening next weekend. I already read notation pretty well, so I think my toughest challenge will be those dot diagrams. (*grin*)

But I'd love to see your voicings! How can you cyberize them? I mean . . . is there a files section here that will hold a jpeg? Just curious.

Bob whish Yamaha Digital piano do you have?

I put the dots into a template I created in Photoshop then upload them to
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/porgy.gif
Bob331 was only able to print a few dot diagrams. Can you print all the way to the C7#9...the end of the voicing? (Bob, it was only one column. It looks truncated but ignore the little slice of the C keys along the right side.) So far only Porgy is there. I'll try to punch Sunny in right now, then will come Emily.


...er, uh, I've got Sunny ready to fly, but I guess I forgot how to upload....HELP!!!!!!! [img]http://[/img]

Looking forward to seeing your diagrams! I only see a very small one-column graphic when I click on that previous JPEG, and it doesn't show the second column when you try to enlarge it. Maybe I am doing something wrong with that graphic.

I'm really disillusioned with the method. What he has done here is show you ONE way to make "cocktail piano" arrangements. There are many other ways to play jazz. George Shearing (doubling the melody in octaves), Oscar Peterson, Art Tatum, Chick Corea . . . lots of other styles and sounds. This is a very limited way of voicing the songs and would get monotonous for the listeners if you actually learned 15 of them that are voiced using this limited constrained method, as advised in the course materials. Best to figure out which songs really sound good this way, learn those, then move on to different ways of arranging. There are some neat books out on arranging for the piano with or without a fake book and how to teach yourself jazz piano (try Mel Bay books--they're excellent and under $10).

This course is really targeted toward people who know nothing about piano and have never played before. It drives me insane not to have real notation, for one thing. That said, it could be fun to voice several of your favorite songs this way. I don't seriously think that you would be mistaken for someone who has played lifelong, though, for the simple reason that when they say, "Do you know 'Memory' from CATS?" or "Can you do 'Melancholy Baby'?" or even "How about the Fur Elise?" you will not be able to play any other style. ('Memory' does not sound right to me played any other way except the way the staged musical does it. "Melancholy Baby" is better done in the old-fashioned style and really only appeals to drunks ) I mean, this is a cute addition to what I already know and can do. But it isn't the panacea that it's made out to be in the marketing materials. Hey, and he also says you must practice scales. News flash! Being classically trained (to whatever extent I can be considered eddificationed at all), I have already done that! And it means that the course is not really a quick fix.

I must also mention that I have had EVERY post and EVERY thread I've started there on the S. website either ignored or deleted outright. I also have not heard back from private mail sent to him. This is probably because I let on that I already know music theory, and the emperor may suspect he is nekkid (and may further fear that the little kid will soon be pointing this out.) He doesn't seem to want anyone who will say, "Hey, look, rock ballads as you mention on some threads don't have to be voiced in such a complex way. Here's how to play 'I Feel the Earth Move' and 'Anticipation' in the rock ballad style--do you want dot diagrams for them?" Not that I give a crap, and o'course it's his marketing site, but still, that makes you realize that he's out to sell The One True Way idea. I suppose anyone's in it to make a living, so hey. Still, rock ballads (which he mentions on a couple of threads on his website, 'cause lots of children of the 60s and 70s and 80s simply don't know the jazz standards well enough to play the melodies by ear, and he says you should try some of those) can be played much more simply and will sound Just Like The Record, IMHO. I've been playin' them since I was eleven.

Please don't try to play "You've Got a Friend" by Carole King voiced with his method, as he suggests on one thread. It would sound ri-di-cu-lous (as my niece likes to say, all dragged out and rolling eyes). It's a rock ballad and you just play it with the normal chords and an occasional sus4 and several diminished (add7) chords. Listen to the recording. It doesn't sound right with the jazz standards treatment. I keep meaning to hook up a MIDI keyboard and play some of my own by-ear arrangements to see what the notation ends up looking like.

George Miladin used to sell a "See and Hear Piano" system that was actually a little more comprehensive as far as how to play by ear in different styles and do intros/endings and embellishments like fills and runs. I don't think he has that on the market any more, but it was seriously more musicianly than this particular system. Just MHO.

I could only print out up to the 10th chord - the Ami6.

Bob

Clavinova CLP 130.

Bob

I suggest anyone who wishes to criticize the Sudnow course should first read the course materials through completely, and listen to the six-hours of CD materials, as stipulated in page one of the instructions, before posting heated criticisms of a course which might bring enjoyment to many people.

This includes people who state all their posts were ignored or deleted from the Sudnow website. I'm having trouble with this person's credibility, because I've responded to her posts on the Sudnow site, thus I disagree that every one of her posts was ignored.

David encourages people who have piano training to take his course. One thing he doesn't encourage is criticizing him without reading the instructions.

Anyway, I'm outta here for a while. I can see there is grief coming up which I sure as heck don't need, so I think I'll more happily spend my hours practicing the Sudnow method. I don't feel like sparring, so baby you can let it rip into thin air. I'm not going to look at this forum for six months.

David advised me to spend my time playing piano, not on the forums. He sure was right. Again.

All best wishes to those who weren't driven insane by the dots without notation.

TTFN y'all

*grin* You thought that was "heated criticism"? You must not have been around the Internet for very long. All I did was post a review that wasn't glowing like all the others that have been posted here. It was a more objective review than what one usually sees on the Net, I think. Not sparring, not "grief." Simply a dissenting point of view (which is, I thought, one purpose of these forums: to examine differing views.)

Yes, YOU did reply to a couple of my posts on threads that were already established. You're the only one, I think. I *should* have specified that it's Mr. Sudnow who has never replied to any of my posts or my e-mails. Which is, of course, his privilege. I noted it as odd because he normally replies to the people on his boards and participates in the threads.

Here's what happened re my threads being deleted. I started a new thread on the discussion forum over there night before last, and came back in the morning to see if I had any replies (if, in other words, there would be interest in having me post dot diagrams of a 70s rock ballad with simpler chording that I think sounds better for rock), and got an error on the site saying there was no such thread. I figured I must've done something wrong. SO I opened a thread again last night. Left the browser window open. Came in this morning and "refreshed" the window to find that I'm getting the same error from the site--"no such thread--please report this error to the administrator" or something like that. This means to me that my threads were deleted. And it's because they weren't specifically about the method . . . I said that rock ballads could and should be voiced differently, not using the method outlined. And that was apparently considered off-topic. The site says that any threads/posts that don't discuss the method will be axed. Apparently, my thread was not sufficiently about the method. (I don't really agree, but hey, as I said in my original post--you could look it up if you don't remember this part--it's *his* board.)

Anyhow, I received the course materials early last week, listened to the CDs, and printed the PDF files. As I said, it's a method that teaches you ONE way to voice "cocktail piano" arrangements of songs. It doesn't really teach you "how to play the piano" or "how to play jazz piano" or whatnot. That's what I said in my original post, and I stand by that. I think offering the pieces in standard musical notation would be a nice addition, because I'll bet there are others who don't want to play from bulky dot diagrams. (My Russian teacher would think they were ridiculous, in fact . . . but then she reads music as easily as we read comic books. But I forgive her.)

Funny how it's not received too well if someone says that the course isn't the be-all, that improvements could be made to the course. The best defense of something is to refute (using facts) whatever it is that the questioner or reviewer has said that you don't agree with. If you don't have any defense or explanation, you can always get huffy and stalk away, making some kind of personal attack on the reviewer. That's the "ad hominem" argument that relies on inflaming emotion and ignoring reason. Now, which happened here?

I always think it's kind of silly when someone fires a parting shot of "okay, I am leaving and won't read this thread any more," because what it seems to mean is that whatever was said really got to them. Usually, the reason it "got to them" is because they sense truth in the point of view that's opposite from theirs. There really wasn't any rancor in my original post; I was simply saying that I'm a little disillusioned, as I had for some reason expected the course to contain some discussion of other aspects of jazz playing. How did you (footom) come up with the idea that I hadn't gone through the course? One positive thing I can say is that after I paid through PayPal, I got the CDs in the mail within four or five days. That's impressive.

Oh, well. It seems that the last fellow (footom) thought he was the only (or the most important) person reading the topic, because he says we can shout into thin air now. (It was kind of seventh grade stuff.)

Did the rest of you take my comments as some kind of flame? (Again, that would mean you have not been around the Internet for very long! ) I thought that newcomers might want to know that the course isn't going to make them sound as if they've played for years . . . until after they've played for years, of course.

Years ago, I took a jazz piano class at our local community college. Our instructor was not and is not famous. Yet he managed to show us how to play standards in several pianists' characteristic styles. The various styles are different, but all are good. I thought that was a lot more useful in the students' growth as a pianist than just showing one way. What the Sudnow course teaches is the One True Way. The believers, it seems, are very very loyal and take offense at any criticism. I'm a little surprised, because usually criticisms can be helpful even when you don't agree with them: they make you consider the opposite point of view, and you end up analyzing your own point of view, usually to your benefit.

Since there's no one here now but thin air, I'll sign off with: "talk to you later, thin air . . . you've been very refreshing, in comparison with the cloud of pollution we normally live under in this city!"

I purchased the Sudnow course and have just started to work with the materials. So far, I am really enjoying the playing. The Sudnow Forum is not very active, but I do get very prompt email responses from Mr. S. on questions that I have.

I don't believe that any method has all of the answers and I welcome anything that you would like to add to the knowledge of those of us who play (or would like to play) jazz/pop/rock/cocktail piano. So if you have suggestions or dot diagrams for other songs, I, for one, would love to see them.

Bob

(Hi, Bob . . . not sure if you're replying to ME or to the previous person, so I'll answer. Thin air has a name! )

It's good that you get prompt responses. That's what I thought was so odd . . . that Mr. S. replied so quickly to other people on those boards and never to me. I had sent him private email a couple of times wanting to get a private lesson when he's in Texas. You know, though, maybe he had an old girlfriend named Shalanna or one who was in Dallas, and he thinks I'm that person, and wants to avoid her. You can never tell about these things. I'm just reporting what happens.

Um, okay. I am not much of a dot-diagram person, but then again I'm too lazy to notate most of the songs I play by ear. How do you feel about Carly Simon's "Anticipation"? It's rather easy to play as rock ballads go. Or "Try to Remember" from the Fantasticks. That one, though, has an arpeggiated chord in the LH. They don't sound cocktail piano, though--one is a rock ballad, and the other is a show tune. I will be visiting my cousin sometime early in May and she has a MIDI setup, so here's an idea. What if I played the songs into her MIDI setup, printed out the sheet music, and then made a dot diagram from looking at that?

You see, when I said the diagrams made me looneytunes, I meant I can't play from them. But I can glance at the notation and I'll just know where the key on the piano is, so I ought to be able to MAKE them. It's kind of like, I can graph an equation, but ask me to tell you the equation that a graph is done from, and I have to do a lot of work going that direction. So I think I could make diagrams for these songs.

The ONLY trouble is that THESE songs are still under copyright. My arrangement could be construed as a violation. So I'm not sure whether it's kosher to post them on the board or not. You wouldn't think that a big company like Warner Music (for example) would care if three or four people shared an arrangement, but you don't want to be made an example. So it might need to go, um, private mail.

(The issue they were discussing over on the Sudnow boards was that they'd like some newer tunes that they already know by heart, but that's impossible for him to do, because you have to work with songs that are in the public domain. That's why the old method books from when we were kids had stuff like "Drink To Me Only With Thine Eyes," "(Casey Would Waltz With A Strawberry Blonde And) The Band Played On," and "Long Long Ago" (yeah, exactly) from the 1890s . . . they were then just newly in the public domain.)

Or maybe you're not as old as I am and might want another song from the 70s era. Any ideas? Make it a pianistic song. You know what might lend itself to this? "Desperado," by the Eagles. But not "Beth," by Kiss. *grin* (Gene Simmons is just the type to come after me.)

I don't feel that I am stealing any ideas if I do make a diagram, by the way. He got that idea from the old "Pointer System" books for the organ and piano, and they probably got it from somewhere else. In those systems, you stuck a sticker on each key and then played as indicated on the keyboard pictures. Whee! That is why I could start playing through those books when I was four and didn't have to do lots of heavy reading (although I was a precocious reader and was reading the "Bobbsey Twins" series before I ever went to school, I don't think I could have understood all the stuff in those books--just the diagrams.) So the idea of a diagram is nothing new. (Not that he is wrong in using them, either. They're just . . . a pain, AFTER you read notation passably well.)

Both - great songs!

Why bother with the dot diagrams? Why not just post your arrangement - I can read music and I suspect most of the people on this board can, too.

Unfortunately, I'm not qualified to discuss the copyright laws, although I'll try to get more information on this. One distinction is that David Sudnow is SELLING his songs, while you would just be giving away your arrangement. But that may not be enough.

Bob

It strikes me that Sudnow is not violating the copyright laws because he is not publishing the actual music - just a diagram of an arrangement.

So maybe the dot diagram is the way to go.

Bob

Well, I *think* that he may be using music that has come into the public domain. 'Cause an arrangement is an arrangement (to a lawyer--heh!) But lemme think . . . "StarDust" has come into the public domain, if I remember correctly, rather recently. I read something about that. But Gershwin's stuff is still covered, I think. And "Misty." So . . . who knows? It's really a tricky situation that I can sympathize with on both sides. As an author I don't want people to distribute versions of my work without paying a royalty, yet I would like my work to be more widely admired and read (parallel with "played") and wouldn't want to come after a fan fiction site (parallel with this, I suppose) and seem "mean." However, when corporations "own" something, they have no hearts.

Now, here's something I *have* seen. People will just put down the letter names for the notes line-by-line. They trust that readers know the rhythm. (Aha, dot diagrams don't show the rhythm!) That would be less work than a dot diagram. (*grin*)

I am relieved to hear that other people read music. I was beginning to get worried. ;o

Okay, I sat down this morning and decided that although I'd be reluctant to post sheet music or a dot diagram, that I could do this kind of explanation of how I play one rock ballad/song by ear. I only hope Michael Stipe doesn't read this group. *wink* Surely he'd be flattered, and not in a litigious mood. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I thought that MOST people on this board would have heard this song and know it well enough to understand the directions.

This is a test. If you can play something that you recognize as the song using this, please let me know. We'll have "The Rock Ballads Method" for free. **GRIN**

"Cmid" means middle C. "Gmid" means the G above middle C.

What I'm giving you in detail here is the right hand part--the chords are in the RIGHT hand with the melody voice in them, usually at the top but sometimes in the middle. Your left hand will play a simple root-octave pattern--we'll discuss that in a moment.

"Losing My Religion" by R.E.M. in D minor

(Intro--Single notes above middle C and chords that "surround" mid C)
:G, A, G, D, (first chord) Bb-D-F/
G, A, G, D, (2nd chord) A-D-F (Dmin 2nd inv.):
F, D, F, G, F
--repeat lines between colons above--

(Vocal begins)
"Oh" G-Cmid-E (chord)
"Life" F-A-Dmid
"is bigger"--single notes D-E-D while holding down the previous chord--you'll hear what I mean

"bigger" G-Cmid-E (this could be played as G-B-E; ear test)

(from here on, pick out those melody notes yourself--let me know if you can't, but that wouldn't be likely)

"not me" F-A-D
"lengths" A-C-F
"Go" E alone
"to" bassE-G-Cmid
"distance in your" Emid-F-E
"eyes" F-A-Dmid

Okay, while you do this, in the LH you'll hit the root of the RH chord in the bass octave below. Syncopate it with its octave (you know, the lower D and the D above that) so it's like the guitar strum. You can also double the melody notes below or use the third instead of the root. Use your ear.)

Before I do more typing, somebody try this out and see if it makes sense.

Here's the ending--can't resist putting this bit in.

LH plays single note D on the 2nd D from the bottom of the keyboard.
RH: (start on A above middle C) A,G,F,D,G,F,D,F,D (getting softer so that final D is pianissimo)

Well, this may not make any sense. Or, if it does, it deserves its own thread, perhaps. What do you think?

To clarify--when you play the first chord of the intro of the song, you're going to "bounce" on that chord and on the root you're playing (B-flat) in your LH so that it sounds a little like the strum pattern on the original (guitar) recording. You're also going to do that kind of rhythmic "rock" playing throughout.

This prolly isn't too clear. If I get the Edirol portable recording device, I'll make an MP3 and put it up. I could never do that for classical music. . . But for pop, I'd probably do it.

Good try. There may be others who understand this, but I'm confused. In part, it's probably because I don't know what the song sounds like.

Maybe we need someone who's an expert on music copyright law to tell us if there is anything you can do that would be more understandable.

Thanks for your help.

Bob

I bought this course but have not started it yet. I downloaded all of the material about a month ago. I just tried to log in to make sure there were no download material updates, and now I cannot find the download web site. Does anyone here have a record of the sites web address? Thanks.

You can listen to the song here .
I'm sure you've heard it before

Since the download web site is only for people who have purchased the course, I think you have to get this from David Sudnow. If you send him an email, he will send it to you.

F/Y/I - I also purchased the course a month ago and there are no updates.

Bob

Sorry. That web site is in Spanish; I can't translate.

Bob

I just read this whole back and forth regarding the Sudnow method and wanted to chime in. I got the course back in December and listened to the CD's immediately. I think it's a good method to use as a supplement to anyone trying to learn piano. I agree that it's one way of voicing songs but never did I hear David or anyone say this was the "ONe True Way of Playing". I think he encourages you to pursue enrichment and growth in all areas of your musicality. And really I mean how much stock can you put in one indivudual's point of view anyway. Take the Sudnow method for what it is...a way to play nice arrangements of standard tunes and a way to get more familiar with theory, colorization, harmony, and chord progessions. But anyone would be wise to seek out multiple methodologies and advice. You can only broaden yourself by learning as many points of view and approaches as possible.

If you click the link with the right button of your mouse, you'll download it to your hard disk.

So . . . hi, Mauri! Since you already know the R. E. M. song, could you follow my instructions on playing the first phrase or so, the stuff I wrote in the previous message? If you did, what did you think of the "arrangement"? Just kinda wondering. I still haven't gotten any kind of recording of myself playing that bit or any of the other songs I've recorded by ear. I need to borrow one of those Edirol R-1 thingies for a couple of days (supposed to be a great handheld digital recorder! Have not seen one in person yet, though.)

I do hope that some of you are progressing using whichever method you like. But don't forget that there are several ways . . . you'll probably prefer one "sound" over all the others, but it's nice to be able to do different things. Floyd Cramer rules. And God Bless Willie Nelson! (*GRIN*)

Mel Bay puts out some neat books. I recently went on eBay (bad, bad, bad spender) and picked up the Mel Bay "teach yourself" books on the blues, rock, and jazz piano. They've got lots of interesting info and ideas. But you do have to be able to read music to some extent.

Y'know, one thing that the Sudnow method emphasizes is NOT learning wrong notes. I can wholeheartedly agree with that. In the Beethoven sonata I'm working on, there is a wrong note (G instead of F) that has sneaked (snuck?) in, and every time I'm not thinking actively about it, it'll get me. Waaah! And there's only so much slow practice that anyone can stand, so maybe you can learn a couple of measures at a time and play them up to speed and memorize that way. Fast movements are different from slow movements when you're playing.

Hi, Shalanna

No, I haven't tried it, but I'll try it some time later. My already practice time is overloaded right now and for the next weeks... :p

Hi

I bought the Sudnow method well over a decade ago. As a self taught pianist, I credit it with a good start at learning about the keyboard. Of course, the limitation is that you really don't get to learn a variety of arrangement styles with it. If you're a beginner, like I was, then its more important, like Sudnow says, to be able to visualize and grab chords quickly and be able to move from one chord to another. Again thats for a beginner, however, even an intermediate classical player with no ability with foming their own chords will benefit from learning to form chords thru scales

Until now, I've never learned to read sheet music and never really felt a need to. My level of playing after approximately ~10 years , of course, is high intermediate to advanced (pop, jazz, new age, etc). The benefit of learning and having the Sudnow method as the basis of my playing is that I never had to play anything I didnt like and never had a set amount of practice time (sometimes I wouldnt play for months). My music was always there under my fingers, at the spur of the moment whenever there was a piano around.

I recommend the course if you're a beginner, but recognize that at the start its a whole lot of work, and as somebody posted, arranging some songs the way its suggested will not sound great for some songs. But if you keep at it, the basic skills of playing the piano is the payoff.

If youre at the stage where you are considering whether you should do a stride or open vocing or trying to figure out what solo improvisation to put in your arrangement, then I say don't bother with the course.

Arnz,

Thanks for the interesting input. I noticed you're in NY. Did you ever have a lesson with David? Also, do you gig at all, or just play for fun?

Hi Kate,

No, I don't play any gigs, do they even have piano bars any more? I think its an endangered species. So its justa hobby of mine, I play at family get togethers, twice I played in front of an audience during variety shows accompanying a singer (loose definition of singer here, lol) and once solo playing.

No, I've never met David Sudnow, and I didn't know anything about his whereabouts till now. I just wanted to give my review of the product, which I think is the best way to start for adult beginners. Don't expect to learn arrangement styles. I actually thought to myself the first five songs i voiced sounded horrible, but I kept at it. The skills you develop along the way tho will enable you to learn different styles with a greater understanding.

Buy any other beginning course, and they'll try to teach you to read music, and play mary had a little lamb (bit of an exaggeration but you know what I mean).

Instead you should learn how to play the piano then learn to read music if you want. Think about it, as a child did you learn how to read first then learn how to speak?

This advice for all those beginner adults who would love to be able to sound really good a few years down the road. You have to know the scales and chords, and all the rest of the arrangement styles flow from that, if you know your C chord and you wanna arpeggiate it, you just break it up and move up and down the keyboard. if you want to stride, you hit the base note low in the bottom then hit an inverted chord in the middle...but try to start with that without understanding what youre doing and not able to grab chords fast enough and you will fail.

Actually I live in Long island kate, where are you from? Are you doing this course? Are you a beginner or advanced?

hey,
i am thinking of buying a piano course for myself. now i went through duane shinn's 101 weeks email lessons and found them pretty good being a person who had no ideas about chords at all(i can play the melody well though).now i know the circle of fifths,some basic chord progressions,the names of the chords,identifying the key of the song.now i want to take my piano playing a step further.I have three options to choose from duane shinn,yoke wong(www.playpianotips.com) and the sudnow method.which one should i go for.duane shinn's seems the best but it is darn expensive and my budget is $200.i cannot afford to spend more than this amount and want a complete course.also the course should preferably not involve any (or very little maybe) sight reading.do you people have some suggestions?

Footom, would you happen to have the dot arrangements for "Days of Wine and Roses", "I Left My Heart In San Francisco" and "Autumn In New York"?
If so could you please cyberize and send them to me?
I had the old manual of the Sudnow method with the songs but the manual got ruined and have been looking and asking on various forums how to acquire them. Would greatly appreciate any help in this area.

REVIVAL POST !!!!

I am reviving this post out of curiosity. I would like to hear from any of the people that posted previously within this thread and hear what they have to say now ... after 8 years have passed. Sometimes that early enthusiasm wanes with real life .... or not ...

Any previous posters still around ?

Don:

I see that nobody has responded to your query, which is understandable. Why do I say that? Well...

The problem with any self-study course is that it is done typically in isolation. It is very difficult to maintain motivation and focus day after day, month after month, and year after year, which is exactly what is required to learn what Sudnow called a "hardy skill".

Most of us who go this path have never finished such a course of study, and many of us (I am reasonably sure) own many of this type of course because each promises a whole new life of music, which seems much more compelling than the one we are currently grinding through in isolation. As a result, most of us seem to just sort of disappear as the shiny newness of a given course of study begins to wear thin.

I do know of two people who progressed far enough in the Sudnow method to really start sounding like they knew what they are doing. One used to be active here, "Swingin' Barb" and another is local here in the Twin Cities. I don't know that there really is a finish to the Sudnow method. He starts you in a certain direction and you take it from there.

I learned quite a lot about teaching myself from the Sudnow method as well as a number of nice tunes. However, my personal musical direction is more along the lines of players such as David Lanz, Michele McLaughlin, and others in that style typically unfortunately known as "new age". For that, you really need full functionality of BOTH hands from the start since the left hand is very active doing arpeggios and other figures while the right hand is handling melody and chording under it in a very flowing arpeggiating manner.

In the Sudnow method, you only play the root and either the 5, 8, or b7 of the chord in the left hand and the whole thing is block chords with both hands moving from chord to chord locked together in time. The idea is that over time, your hands gain enough familiarity with the keyboard that you will naturally begin to expand on this style as you continue to practice. That may work, I don't know since I admittedly did not stay with it long enough to realize that promise.

Another aspect of "new age" piano is that it really is largely an improvisational art. It seems weird to me to hear of people learning to play specific tunes from a given new age artist from sheet music to perform exactly as written. If you listen to live recordings of, say, David Lanz, it quickly becomes apparent that for him, his tunes represent a framework from which he mostly makes up what he will do as he plays. The framework provides enough of the melody so people recognize it, but he always takes it in new directions. So a classical reading approach is really not fitting for really "getting" this music, but developing the technique on the keyboard and the ability to hear (play by ear) so you can play what you hear in your mind, is. This music really comes from the heart rather than off of a printed page.

With the Sudnow method, I can readily see how one would begin to improvise eventually, since he has you thinking for yourself and working out your own chord voicings under the melody. That is very different thinking than reading everything from sheet music.

With regard to the Duane Shinn 52 week adult crash course, I know of only one person who completed that and he posted years ago about it in these forums. I own that course too, along with Piano For All, Rocket Piano, and some Yoke Wong materials.

Having just retired, I am now able to commit some time and energy toward learning to play piano. I spent some months recently deciding what it is I want to accomplish on the piano and what skills I need to develop to do that. I purchased a Roland V-Grand piano, which I paid off in the first month of ownership, and am having a great time!

I spent some time with each course evaluating it in terms of where I wanted to go musically. At first, I was going to go with Duane Shinn, but after considering what my goals are, settled on a completely "by ear" course I got a few years ago called the Any Key Music System by Robert Chambers over the Duane Shinn 52 week course. I see that now Chambers has various membership packages that provide videos, but when I bought it, there were 4 levels of several CDs or MP3s each and a package deal on all of it at once. There was no membership, which is the way I like it. I would rather just go off and do it, though I may decide to join at some point in the future after finished the entire course if I feel there is anything more to be gained.

That course starts with learning fingering and the notes on the keyboard. Then you drill and drill and drill and ... drill on the major scales with each hand until it becomes second nature before moving on to other matters. The course is really a sort of "boot camp" and you really do need to be motivated. However, it goes step by step so you always know exactly what to do and how to know you have finished a thing before moving on. There is very little printed material, just three very short little PDF booklets in which you write down some things you need to remember such as scale fingering. Chambers believes you don't learn to hear from a book and I agree.

Right now I am almost finished with the last CD (MP3) of level 1 and will be moving on to level 2 later this week.

The other courses I have purchased over the years will have their day too, since once I have my foundation, there will always be new things I want to explore. Of these, I think Yoke Wong's materials are probably the easiest to drop into later on because of the way they are structured. I am especially interested in her improv course, which I have on DVD. I believe all these course have something very real to offer, but as I said earlier, few really stick with anything long enough to realize the benefit. If there was ever a good argument for having a "live" teacher, this would be it.

To me, the most important things I learned from the Sudnow method were how to work alone learning to play piano, what musical discipline really is, and how to practice. I take these things into whatever course I have chosen to work with.

I should say that there were several versions of the Sudnow method over the years. The best BY FAR to me was the one that consisted of 12 tapes (which I converted to CD) and an accompanying book that had many "dot tunes" with in depth explanations and much more in depth about learning to hear melodies and such. I review these periodically because in these 12 tapes/CDs, he went into depth about the history of jazz piano, how to listen to the recommended players (how to use your ears), how to study and the correct discipline approach, as well as much more in depth about his method than any of the subsequent versions which really only have a very heavily edited version of the seminar weekend that is central to his method. It was an unfortunate aspect of Sudnow's work that he had to find a price range that people would be willing to pay for the course. By removing a lot of material deemed less necessary, he was able to distill the entire course into three CDs and a booklet at a very reasonable price. Later, he had a web site with essentially that three CD course plus several other materials and a forum that cost per year roughly what the 12 tape course had cost some years before. The site is still alive and I believe that for those who are interested in Sudnow's method, very much worthwhile.

I think the Sudnow method would be a great addition to anybody's collection for self-study because he talks a lot about stuff that many self-study methods (except Duane Shinn's 52 week course) fail to delve into - how to study, when to know you are ready to move on to the next lesson, motivation, etc. Most courses present their material and leave these kinds of things completely up to you to figure out.

Tony