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Hi Alan, I didn't think badly of your comment. I think your advice may bode well depending on the audience. Obviously, not everyone likes jazz.

My point of view though is that I play music for my enjoyment and sometimes that means I don't cater to the audience. Yeah, I probably won't be able to jazzify anything if I'm comping for a singer.

But often when playing solo piano, no one's listening anyway so I'll just play the way I want.

Hi Jazzwee

Thanks for the advice its good to make sure I know what I'm talking about and that I'm not talking utter tosh!! ...I think I need to listen to more jazz so that I know exactly what I am referring to.

I am not keen on the way out jazz to be honest...but I like a song to swing...I love the Sinatra Big Band type of stuff...but, I dig the cocktail sound too


Hmmm...too much to learn too little time


Lee

I'll see if I can find that Kenny Werner version of My Romance to see if I like that kind of stuff?

Lee, Kenny does some pretty fancy stuff on that improvisation-wise but I'm just making note of how differently a jazz pianist plays solo compared to a non-jazz pianist.

Back to the discussion of what to learn -- I think that knowing all the major scales inside and out is a critical requirement. You have to get out of playing in C my friend.

In jazz when I asked you to try a b9, #9, b13, etc. It's basically like playing a chord in a different key while keeping some tones in the original key (by keeping the 3 and 7). So you can't really picture simple concepts like Tritone substitution in the key of C since in essence it is a shift to the key of F#.

What I wrote about gives you a chance to hear what jazz chords sound like. True implementation of this requires full mastery of theory, which frankly isn't that hard for a piano die hard like you. It's stuff you can learn while away from a piano.

One more thing I neglected to mention. Many traditional songs are written with just triads in mind for chords instead of full seventh chords. Jazz usually relies on seventh chords and that's why the 7th of the chord is particularly important. In fact, you could just play 1/7 or 3/7 in the LH and the RH could fill in a note or two of the chord (besides the melody) and it will sound pretty full.

Hi jw
I know...but, I'm so ridiculously comfy in C and I have to start thinking so much more in other keys and I am like the worlds laziest person (Mrs Seaside will vouch for this!


thanks for the help


So, scale work it is then


Lee

Lee, there's two aspects to scale work. One is the technique side of scales, but the other side which is easier to figure out is just to learn to visualize the scale. Doesn't mean you have to do the scale at 200bpm.

One has to visualize the intervals automatically without thinking. So if I need to hit the 3rd, 5th b7, and 13 of the scale, I should know where it is in a microsecond. If practiced a little bit every day, it becomes second nature in a short amount of time.

With this knowledge, you would be able to take a leadsheet and play a tune you've never seen before in an instant. Very gratifying, let me tell you.

But don't worry, I'm not pushing you to do it. At least you can print out some of the stuff here and make it available for later action.

For the moment, just enjoy the jazzy sound you create in C.

'morning all! Lee and jazzwee.

My brain (or what's left of it) functions best at this time of day. 6.30 am.

Lee, will do a tape recording for you. Old Man River. We went up it to New Orleans last Dec. A fantastic holiday steeped in jazz with wonderfully nice folk to mix with.

I'm glad you mentioned key of C too. That is an ear players starting key in my opinion. One soon sees the need to use semitones though. Surely the limit on writing music is almost nil without use of the black notes.

The reason I opened this topic was to try and find how many people do play by ear and have no theory.

Yes, it's a silly way really and unless you concentrate on huge amounts of practice and have the mind that can store the sounds in the subconscious brain it may be a limit to success.

On the subject of comping to singers. Try and find DVDs of Ralph Sharon comping to Tony Bennett Ralph has a super jazz style of improvisation on the hoof it seems.

Many professional pianists use huge amounts of memorized technique and musicality and theory. They do not have to read, though they can.

Lee why not play a chord say c e g then c e-flat g and continue practicing all chords with using semitones to make harmonization. That is basic but is a way of adding some nuance to otherwise plain standard music.

When I started learning we had some song-sheet music in the house and I used to follow the tonic sol fah, written for the singer? that was my way of learning when quite a young child.

jazzwee has a good way of teaching and if you have some theory so much the better.

I personally cannot change and the poor old brain has quite enough sounds in the sub-cons. that there's no way, I could change now.

Bye Bye!whilst my awful broadband is intact.

Alan.

Swingal and Lee, if one is stuck in one key (whatever it is), does that then exclude a whole slew of standards that modulate through several keys? That's a little limiting isn't it?

That might be most of the tunes in a Real Book or Tin Pan Alley standards...

Yup

Theres still plenty of songs I can't play and plenty of bridges that I can't figure yet because they modulate...but, I am aware of this.

Its my lazy backside that's preventing me doing the work for it...but, the desire is finally eating into my lazy persona to get off my butt and just flippin' well do it! :rolleyes:

My thinking on this (and this is just my thoughts so take 'em with a pinch of salt) is that it doesn't really matter where you start with the piano, maybe, taking regular lessons or doing things by yourself its a journey of discovery and you can't learn everything in a weekend.

My 3 and a half year piano playing journey has so far been a heap of fun but, even so I have put many, many hours in plinking away...now, though something inside is pushing me to start taking things in new directions and I'm glad Alan started this thread, if only for me to start to see it and think about how to go about it.


regards


Lee

It is always great to see a wealth of play by ear and classically trained pianists on the board taking the time to pass on the 'tricks of the trade'. Can we have some nice demo videos on technique?

Yeah...I'm with Gilbert

Videos would be cool...preferably at a 10th of the speed of Doug McKenzies and simpler [duh!]


Lee

Jazzwee.

When I read comments about the key of C. Like your:- "if one is stuck in one key (whatever it is), does that then exclude a whole slew of standards that modulate through several keys? That's a little limiting isn't it?"

Yes that's correct surely. But who's going to play that way? I would think limiting any Key to the actual full tones that the key uses is impossible to have harmonization. jazzwee you are correct then.

But learning by ear soon makes one use the semitones surely.

I don't, in view of what I've said here on this topic, even think it was meant to play a straight scale of C major. This is most primitive way of playing and few here are that basic. I would think.

Hope I got the message correctly,?

Regards

Alan (swingal)

I was reading through this thread (good disscussions) and this post caught my eye.

I play Floy Cramer style. I've been doin' it for so long, it's mostly in the muscle memory of my right hand. I hear in my mind what I want and my hand does it without thinking. I did sit down just now and played a few bars of "Last Date" while watching my hands. Grace notes are the key. Usually major7 or 9th of the root. Grace notes are released and the rest of the notes in the chord are sustained.

In the key of C after the bass pick-up (G,A,B,C,), the first chord with R.H. was E,F,A rolled then the E released and The F,A sustained. That's an F maj7 without root. The second chord is D,E,G rolled with the D released and E,G sustained. (C9) Hope this helps give you an idea. Sorry I can't give you more detail, but since I do it by ear I have to play slow and analyze what I do to describe it.

After 25 years of playing by note, I started playing with country bands and was forced to learn to play by ear. I didn't start out to try to imitate anyone, until one day someone told me my style sounded like Floyd Cramer.

Joe, thanks for the jump start on what Floyd Cramer does - his style is so relaxed and swingy. Hm. More things to try out

Cathy

Hi Alan, it was more in reference to Lee. But again this touches on theory. Playing in C and using semitones is one thing but as I said in my earlier example, if you are playing a G7 and have substituted the 1,3,5,b7 with tension notes (the semitones of C scale like b9, #9, #11, b13), in essence, we have shifted to a different scale, perhaps F# instead of C. Now one can continue to think of these as still in C but a whole different harmonic understanding is revealed by knowing the connection between different keys.

I realize that in playing by ear, most tunes are based on simple diatonic progressions. Playing a standard though like "All the Things That You Are" will fail under an analysis using a single Key. Trying to analze a modulating tune under the premise of whole tones and accidentals of the main key would make it extraordinarily complex.

It's possible to understand it that way but it will become just a series of unrelated tones instead of one being able to visualize triad relationships and such.

Going back to C scale. A quick visual would show that playing #9 and b7 of C(Eb and Bb) is actually a Bb scale (C Minor). In another example one would see that Bb, D, F is actually a Bb triad, not a b7, 9,11 of C which sounds like a meaningless sequence. Yes all notes are found in a C scale but the lose meaning.

I think that playing by ear and knowing each scale are not separate concepts. I think actually that someone that plays mostly by ear has even more incentive to learn every key so that one can translate what one hears into a "chord progression". As a strong ear player myself, I tend to think in progressions (I, IV, V). Once I know the progression, the key itself becomes irrelevant right?

Anyway this is just an education point. I think that knowing all the scales is quite a bit more important than knowing how to read and I think it is key to ear playing and that I promote knowing it highly.

jazzwee,

I have to admit that I have extremely limited theory of the piano. All I know is what the notes (keys) are called in one octave. I even get confused as to notes like F# and Gb which are the same note on the key board.

Therefore Lee and you both have much more theory. I simply rely on pitch and my memory, that is the limit.

I can liken it to the memory of pure pianists, as I have said somewhere on these forums. They have all the theory and qualifications that professional players have. Plus the ability of theory memorization.

They transfer their memory of the score to put their fingers where they know the correct notes are on the keyboard. They also improvise on jazz the same way, by their knowledge of theory and what modulations provide what sounds. Am I correct?

A pianist like me has the memory 'only' but also the ability to subconsciously recall the key sounds that represent the required notes of chords and harmonic variations of the piece being played. This does require a good pitch recall.

Playing along with recorded music is very good practice. One proviso, your piano must be up to pitch and the recording must be likewise. Some recordings are not,usually due to incorrect speed of the recording studio turntable,I guess.

Yes, jazzwee I agree also about knowing the scales but as we are talking jazz, the aspect of learning scale theory,if a pure ear player,then isn't that part of the pure ear ability?

The art of improvisation should be in the mind and with memory the correct sounds come naturally from years of practice and keyboard mastery. Similarly as professional reading ability jazz pianists do.

When I started this topic, I meant, "pianists that can read and those that cannot". Perhaps that description is rather confusing. There are quite a few variables between us all I suppose.

Any views on that please/

Alan (swingal)

Hi Alan

My feeling is that the more you use "your ear" to listen to the sounds you make the better it gets (as thats been the case with me so far).

Which is really where I was coming from with my initial questions...not being able to read sheet music at all and not being able to read lead sheets very well either I have had to learn how to use my ears these past few years and they definitely are getting better...I don't know if theory is ever going to come easily to me but, I have started doing a little scale work now (since last week anyway jazzwee )

Although, I get the feeling that its probably always going to be a struggle for me and so with this in mind, I'm still hoping that by constantly striving to listen to the sounds that I create that my ear will continue to get even keener with time maybe, to the extent that I just know where to go to create many of those pretty sounds that I like?


regards


Lee

Lee, I like that response. I, for better or worse go back a heck of a long time and if, just if! I had concentrated on simply playing the piano throughout all those c70 years. I might, or even should, have been a lot better off, ability-wise.

Trouble is, once I get to a reasonable level and I find it remains in the subconscious recall, then I get involved with other activities and so it goes on. Dedication is a nice asset to have but life has so many interesting facets to it that music is not just the only thing.

One thing is, do not loose confidence in yourself it takes time and your 3 or so years are nothing time-wise. Just be positive and tenacious you will be happy with yourself then.

Best of Luck. We are all wired up differently so be happy with your lot.

Alan, PS and thanks for the email.

Swingal

Al, suprisingly, jazz is made up of tons of theory. One would think this is an ear player's haven but to play modern jazz means almost intense understanding of scales and just music theory in general.

My personal take is that jazz is not playable without theory. Sure if you play alone, you may sound jazzy but true freedom in playing arises from complete understanding of the music. I daresay that jazzers have a better understanding of theory than most classical players because it is the theory that sets the foundation for what we play and since there is little written music.

But yet, I also want to emphasize that jazz is truly based on the ear too. It is the combination of ear and theory that makes this music (notice the lack of mention of written music).

I don't do a lot of reading. I can read now but not quickly. I haven't played the piano that long, maybe the same time as you guys but I think of myself as being very advanced in understanding theory. This is why I'm able to relate as I focused all my energy into understanding theory from day 1.

Scales is just a foundation of theory and there's a lot more. It gets to a point where theory and ear meet and I think this is when the sparks fly and some exciting sounds (for me at least) are created.

In case you think theory is some complex thing, I would summarize it to be the study of "Tension and Release" in music. That's what it is all about really.

Lee, as an example, wouldn't it be nice to know that not only did you hear three notes in some musical line that they are actually a minor third apart? And that this kind of interval creates tension?

Your brain will connect more to what you are listening to when you can identify a structure with the sound. Some sounds are harder to identify. Augmented and Diminished scales for example. Often one is limited to simple music because one only hears dissonances in a complex line. This is where knowledge of theory allows you to practice the sound and recognize it in all its occurrences.

Hi Alan and jazzwee


Yes I'm in agreement with both of you and want to do both (so, I am going to do)

Your answers are perfect to cement my thinking on this, thats why I keep on questioning


Many thanks to the both of you for your help its appreciated


Lee