Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner - Non Classical dealing with musicians who are just... not good.

Here is a great forum about this and related topics, called "Backstage With The Band":

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forumdisplay.php?f=54

And here is their list of forums, all pop music related:

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/index.php

Bingo! That's what I was trying to say.

Betty & Jeff,

thanks for the response.. yea I agree.. I've went through so many occasions where I felt like there was nothing i could do to make the music sound good. it's definitely bad for my self-esteem.

I think a lot of it has to do with my inexperience as a performer.. i recently finished school, and I actually stopped playing for a while because of injury, so I felt a little intimidated playing with good players, even though they have been generally receptive and positive whenever we played.

Maybe I am just not ready to move on from being a student.. I know i started out late and I am not quite 'there' even though I was one of the better players at school.I've been to jam sessions where people will call giant steps in 7 at 300 bpm and everyone seem to be able to play 1000 standards in all 12 keys and play all the crazy chris potter/brad mehldau lick in their sleep. I've been in circumstance i was totally 'owned' by a bass player and drummer who could play like gary peacock and Jack Dejohnette, and feeling like this is totally out of my league.

Maybe that's normal and its matter of my expectation... I am sure I'm not the only one who felt the same way after finishing school .. maybe a lot of ppl needed those experience after college to lift themselves to that level. After all the jam session i went to was hosted by the winners of the theoloneous monk international competition.

its weird, everyone that hear me play is impressed.. but I am unimpressed about the fact that they are impressed..basically i tell myself, "well, there really isn't much jazz in this town so people don't know any better."

And I really feel like I have so much to learn, maybe I'll be ready to call myself a musician If I can at least 'barely hang' among players like Aaron Parks, Tigran Hamsyan or any other good players around my age...

Another factor that should be considered is are you looking to get more gigs? Are you already playing as much as you want to be? Are you in demand in your local/regional area?

While I agree that you don't always want to be caught up in gigs with players under your level, there is something to be said about taking some of those less than optimal gigs to get your name out. Early on, I played in several situations similar to this and they ended up bringing me a lot of work with better musicians. Who knows who might see you with this band at the wedding? Who knows who they might know and who you would potentially be introduced to?

If you are already in demand as a piano player then you probably already know what your minimum fee is to take the gig and this should be an easy decision for you. If you're not in demand and you are looking to play and to later become 'in demand' i say take the gig, take the money, and learn from the experience. Be gracious to the other musicians you are playing with and even give them some pointers. Don't come off as cocky. Ideally, in the end they'll respect you as a great player and they'll speak highly of you to others. The more people speaking highly of your musicianship, the more you'll become in demand and the more selective you can be with gigs down the road.

JazzPianoEducator

yea that's the reason I was taking these less than ideal gigs. I stopped playing for an year because of tendonitis and I just started playing again recently.

btw I edited my last post.. and i guess this post is becoming more about my attitude as a working musician. I guess one thing I notice is the disparity between the good and not so good.. The pool of good musician is very small here , but the good ones are like super good, so I don't know where I fit, because I am not horrible but I am not keith jarrett either.

While they like how i play,i am not up to par with them, partly because I am on the process of rebuilding my chops since the injury and partly lack of experience (like being able to play 1000 tunes in any key)

etcetra,

I highly recommend you re-read Kenny Werner's book "Effortless Mastery" because you mentioned having self-esteem issues. And try not to compare yourself to others, it's pointless and a negative loop. I also recommend you listen to Kenny's webcast workshops, the last 7 are available for free on his websight.

If I were you I would maybe also avoid playing in the jam sessions, those are basicly cutting contests which can lower ones self esteem as you mentioned. I see jam sessions as more for fun than anything else. I have not found jam sessions to be especially helpful in getting gigs, that's not their purpose, there are far more successful ways to get gigs and to improve your chops. Practice and playing gigs improves my chops, not jam sessions.

J+

Jazz+

Thanks for your input. I guess I am going to jam sessions now because I am new where I live and I really don't know anyone, and its the only way I know to network with people.

The jam session here are by no means intimidating, and what i described is mainly from my experience when i was at school.

etcetera

I'm curious, are you trying to make a living as a professional musician? What are you doing to get gigs? There are a lot of good paying gigs for solo pianists. Playing solo usually is better paying than having to split the money. And giving private lessons is very profitable. By the way, jam sessions are not a very good way to get gigs.

J+

Jazz+

Yes, I am working on making a living playing and teaching. Like I said, I don't know anybody here and I don't speak the language, so its been difficult to network, not to mention that there is very little jazz where I live.

I am on the process of getting a teaching gig, and the wedding gigs I've been getting is a result from going to jam session and sitting in with people.

A lot of gigs here seemed to be fixed, and there is not much opening for new people. I know several other musicians who are good but aren't playing much too.

What language is spoken there?

In that case, I revise my earlier reply (and really, it was a mean-spirited reply - I don't know what got into me) - play with anyone and everyone, no matter how bad, and get your name out there. If you're good, you'll get invitations to play with better performers. I'd never say no to a gig if gigs are hard to get - especially to a paid gig at a wedding. In fact, I've only once said no to a gig, and it was because I had exams at the same time. Curse this law school.

When I go to ragtime festivals, I play with everyone, regardless of level (in fact, one of my favorite things to do is to drag the intermediate-level or beginner players to the piano to play duets with me), and I never say no to a gig. The more exposure I get for my music, the better; but also, I want to be known as someone who is easy and pleasant to deal with on a personal level. That matters. The way you deal with people does get noticed, and music can be a very small world sometimes. The musicians in the community you're trying to enter will hear whether or not you're good, even if the other performers are mediocre. And they will also be able to see that you don't have any weird hang-ups, that you can play with anyone and make them sound good, and that you're dependable and reliable and all those other things. It all matters.

jazz+

Chinese

Larisa

thats a very good point. Lately I am starting to realize that a good social skill will take you much further than your actual play ability. I've been getting more and more calls lately and it has more to do with the fact that they know me as a person now than how I play.

They did like my playing when I first met them, but I guess people weren't sure if I was going to be town much longer. Now that I know these people more, they have been more helpful. I guess I can make assesment as to who I want to be working with on a regular basis once I've met enough people.

And you're right, I did end up meeting better musicians through these not so good musicians.. and the good musicians dont really judge you based on how you play with the not so good musicians, because they've been there and they know what its like.

HK?

Hotel gigs...and it must be tough to get into the Chinese wedding gigs, different music I bet.

its weird out here for hotel gig.. what they mean by jazz is not anything like what we know about jazz. Some of the jazz here is... embarassing to listen to.

It's hard to get into hotel gigs if you don't know the right people.. because the people who play 'legit' jazz and the people who play wedding/hotel jazz are two different groups of people.

Oh, interesting! I have a jazz pianist friend in Shanghai; where are you located?

The other thing that people watch for, by the way, is whether you can make a mediocre player sound good by playing with them. There are a few ragtime players I know who can make anyone sound good by playing duets with them. I'm a fairly average player, but when I sit down with one of those guys, the result is spectacular.

So as you're playing with the mediocre musicians, think about how you could make the band sound better; think of it as a challenge, maybe? How artfully can you cover when the sax player gets the chord change wrong? How well can you adjust when the drummer speeds up or slows down erratically? If you can do that, you'll be worth your weight in gold to any band, and any musician listening to you will know that.

Incidentally, having a bit more confidence in your abilities will help too. You must be pretty good if you're getting that kind of gigs - so don't worry about the mediocre players dragging you down. You're good enough to drag them up.

As a teacher, it takes alot to leave my cheese out in the wind. I'm a patient man by nature, just slobbering over with patience, but under the surface of all that patience, there's a dark side. A seething, pulsating reservoir of magma just waiting for a vent to escape to the surface.

I'm always very patient with mediocre players if I have the misfortune to run into them in a working enviroment. I'm patient with them, until it's time to not be patient, at which point I become impatient, somewhat belligerent, and then there are repercussions, which range from an impromptu pow-wow of confrontationally brutal honesty to my walking out after having my say.

BJones,

haha that is funny.. but you are right.. I had people who told me honestly when I was out of line in my playing too... it sucks, but at the same time it got me fired up to fix whatever problem i was having.

Larisa,

Thanks. I was feeling insecure about my playing lately because I stopped playing for over an year because of tendonitis. I really felt out of shape.. and I felt really off when I started playing again. You are right, trusting in your ability is important, and I am more at ease with my self knowing that it will take some time to build my chops back. You never know who will call you for gig, so its important to stay in touch and network.

btw i've seen piano players do incredible feats with some horrible singers.. one singer called of a tune in one key and started singing in completely different key.. and she had no sense of time and the piano basically had to figure out where she was based on the words she was singing.. if it wasn't for that experienced pianist, it would have been a complete train wreck.

Afterwards the singer told the piano player how great he was and asked if he was interested in working with here.. he kindly told her that he was just too busy...

Tendonitis and realted maladies are a terrible thing and can be a recurring problem.
I work as a teacher, studio musician, and arranger, not as a pianist, only because I only play when I can play. When in pain, I don't play, just write at those times.
Sometimes I can play (the way I like to play), only for 10 minutes in a day. Other times, an hour or more, and sometimes, not for several days, if whatever I've got in there is aggravated.
I've been to doctors, therapists, chiropractics, you name it. They all came to the same conclusion. We don't know why, could be a touch of arthritis in there.
If I keep playing when tender, the fingers swell and recuperation takes almost a week without playing. Away from the piano I'm strong as a bull. never a problem unsticking frozen jar lids or with my grip, arm, and finger power.
I'm completely relaxed at the keyboard, my teacher is a master of teaching proper technique and he cannot see one trace of anything in my playing that would trigger the aggravation.
I teach proper technique to my students and not one of them has ever experienced a similar problem.

I was a little stiff today, so tomorrow I'll avoid the keybaord and on Sat, no doubt I'll be loose again! Strange. I'm used to it and have adapted my work practices and limitations due to it.

Bjones,

I am sorry to hear about your problems.. it was shocking to find out how many people were having problems at school. its not something that is talked about, and I wish school did more to raise awareness about this very important issue... because almost everyone who practiced seriously had problems.

my teacher said similar things about the hands.. there are so much we dont really know about how our body works. i know my problem was a result of bad teachers with bad advice & overstraining myself practicing 6-10 hrs a day.. out of insecurity and negative attitude, out of fear that i started so late,

I guess the good thing is that I am much more delibrate when I practice, and I am much happier about the progress I am making.. and I had to unlearn a lot of things that i was taught. ..

It was a revelation to find out how effortless piano playing can be... I am learning schubert's Eb major impromptu and i realized that the key to speed is relaxation.. my practice is soley focused on doing less to produce more, to find that place in me where the complex fast line becomes easy.