Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner - Non Classical Best jazz pianist *not* classically trained

The benefits that classical piano offers to the proficiency level of a jazz musician is discipline as to building technique,finger dexterity,sight reading skills and expansion of harmonic and rhythmic concepts of the classical composers. To be a versatile professional musician you need to be able to read AND play by ear. It is a serious limitation as a professional musician only to be able to do one or the other. Nobody will hire you for a session. Your sources and possible influences are going to be limited if one can't read.(instructional material,transcriptions etc.)
One thing I will say,the transition from classical to jazz for many musicians is detrimental to many players if they choose to make that transition late in the game. "One has to learn to play on the street." One is conditioned in a totally different perspective and approach and many can't make that transition as a "feel player" no matter what they do or how intense they practice.Oscar Peterson and Sir Roland Hanna are examples of gifted players whom could do both and still "grove" so to speak. The respect for feel/grove players is much more so than one with technical ability with no "feel" So....whats the anwser,you either got it or you don't. You can teach someone the fundamentals of jazz but you can't teach creative improvisation. A prominent jazz authority and teacher told me teaching jazz is a one on one proposition in that it is an unorthodox idiom which some learn by imitation,analysing the masters while others just do their own thing not having the desire or capability to play like Evans,Peterson Shearing,Powell etc.
One other point,many have commented that Art Tatum was not really jazz in that his solos were the same note for note not being true improvisation. Thats OK if I could play Tatum like Tatum who cares what people think

Nat "King" Cole.

Get a hold of some of his recordings with his trio, before he became a pop star and was taken away from the piano by Capitol Records so he could focus on singing.

Obviously Art Tatum is up there for most people and with good reason. If some of his solo recordings might be too overwhelming for you (as they are for me), there is a series of CDs out there of Tatum playing with "friends" who include Ben Webster, Buddy DeFranco and many others. Those are more in a trio or quartet context and it's a different kind of playing from his solo work, but still beautiful and masterful.

I think nowdays majority of jazz pianists are classically trained, and the benefits of having that training is priceless, it will give you a very solid technical foundation.

I think the problem nowdays is that jazz education is way too influenced by classical education, and there is less and less emphasis on rhythm and style, and the use of your ears. That influence eems most apparent in conservatory level education.

George Duke made a great observation about young jazz pianists in his website.. it's something thats definitely worth checking out

btw, i have to disagree with pianobroker's idea that creative improvisation and feel is something innate and cant be taught.. I think the problem with late starter is that you haven't had the exposure to groove and the creative process that is in jazz.. in that respect its similar to technique, its something that can be worked on and improved over time. I am sure Oscar Peterson was exposed to gospel and other "Feel" based music since when he was young, so i dont think his transition is as dramatic as you describe it

I've talked a lot of great musicians who told me they learned how to play by imitating..Ray Brown once said that he used to steal so much ideas from Oscar Pettiford that people used to call him "Ray Pettiford". And i think a lot of the great innovators we know have spend a lot of time learning and imitating the masters in their own ways. And a lot of them say that their individuality was just a bi-product of imitating. I think what separates them from being bland clone is the fact that the developed the skills that was important for them..and they weren't influenced by trends or what they are supposed to sound like. It doens't meant they didnt spend a considerable amount of time emulating other people's styles.

I guess i will leave you with a quote from mozart

"It is a mistake to think that the practice of my art has become easy to me. I assure you, dear friend, no one has given so much care to the study of composition as I. There is scarcely a famous master in music whose works I have not frequently and diligently studied."

etcetra......As a jazz educator how would
one propose to teach creative improvisation or "feel" other than suggesting to one to go out and play "live" with as many other players as possible.Playing with a rythum section is invaluble and an experience that you'll benefit more than any instructional series alone.The problem with many documented jazz instructional series is that they tell you systematically what modes,scales etc. are accepted as a basis of improvisation. "They fail to tell you once you learn the rules than you break them". If you don't you sound like everybody else.
Realistically if one for years on end have stayed within the stringent, disciplinary guidelines of classical piano performance,how could one adapt easily to the mindset of a jazz musician. Better yet how could one play the "blues" soulfully upon just completeing "Blues for Dummies I"
I played classical for many years before making the transition to playing jazz. I can tell from many years of Hanon,Czherny,Bach 2 part inventions it does affect the way one percieves jazz improvisation other than benefiting from elevated technique. For one thing most classical teachers still don't teach chordal theory so most aspiring classical pianists wouldn't know a 13th chord with a flat 9th unless you spelled it out on the staff. As everybody is aware classical repetoire is the same notes for everyone with no opprotunity for improvisation.
Most classical players initially get exposed to so called jazz from imitation from direct transcriptions of the jazz greats. Sightreading skills and technique definitely help in the classical player making the transition to playing jazz. I'n not in total disagreement with you as for the jazz idiom being taught but that alone is not enough."You gotta pay your dues playing on the street at those $50 gigs".
John Tesh managed to make that transition from classical to ....... I rest my case. :rolleyes:

pianobroker,

I am sorry for the late response, I hope you will get the chance to read this. I don't disagree with you about the fact that the kind of systematic learning you describe won't help you become a good jazz musicians.. mainly because most jazz musicians didn't really learn that way.

A lot of jazz musicians emphasize that you learn almost everything by imitation, by ear, transcribing, and playing with the record.. its from doing tons of transcription that they were able to acquire the feel they want. By playing along with someone else's solos you have the chance to really get inside their sounds.

I've talked to friend and teachers, and I am always surprised to hear about how much transcriptions they've done.. some of them can even play along with an entire record of Oscar Peterson.. which is amazing.

I guess another thing people don't realize is how much jazz musicians steal ideas.. a lot of the greats spent a lot of time trying to sound just like Oscar Peterson or Bud Powell. I remember a story about ray brown.. he said that he used to steal so much from Oscar Pettiford that people used to call him "ray Pettiford"

I think learning a 'feel' whether its in funk or jazz, or anything else.. is a lot like language.. you imitate long enough at one point, it will start to become a natural part of you.. the problem is that if you are an adult learning a foregin language it may be harder.. but nevertheless you can still become fluent in a new language over time

In fact, a lot of older jazz musicians I met hate jazz books in general.. it's not how they learned, and a lot of them seems to be very frustrated about the fact that people are playing out of real books.

Btw now days most jazz pianists are classical trained..most university require you x amount of classical training as jazz majors.. but it really varies from people to people.. I read that Kenny Kirkland studied to become a concert pianist.. while kenny werner admits that he never really went that far in his classical training, because he was never into it.

We should mention, though, that one of the best jazz players of all time was classically trained. He composed and conducted in addition to treating us to some of the finest piano jazz music ever played.

Andre Previn.

I think he's better than Erroll Garner.

You certainly can listen to him for a longer period of time.

Isn't that really a matter of opinion & taste?? Andre Previn is not in the list of my favorite jazz pianists.

Art tatum is considered to be the best of all time and I read that he was not classically trained.

From what I read about Oscar Peterson, George Shearing, Red Garland.. etc their classical background was quite unusual.. some of the either didn't go very far with it, or in the case of Oscar, he picked up a lot of classical pieces by ear.

Makoto Ozone is a another fine jazz pianist who had no "formal" training so to speak.

One thing to keep in mind is that a lot of the jazz pianists would have learned classical pieces because that is what was current in the households of their youth. Oscar Peterson's dad used to give all of the Peterson kids classical pieces to learn by the time he returned home from his route on the railroad. His sister taught classical piano.

Another place where many jazz pianists got their training was in the church. Depending on denomination they would have been exposed to classical liturgical music as well as gospel.

One thing you can say for classical training is that several hundred years of keyboard experience should not be dismissed lightly, particularly if you enjoy the music. If you don't enjoy it play something else.

I think a lot of it is matter of degree.. I do work on classical pieces, and I personally would want to play Chopin etudes, but I don't want to say that you have to be able to do that in order to be a jazz pianist, because not every jazz pianist did.

I wrote this somewhere else, but in my experience a lot of university jazz majors have to put up with a lot of classical training, some schools require that you do junior recital in classical.. and as a result, a lot of people are frustrated because they just don't have enough time to work on their jazz stuff.

Sometimes people have this notion that a jazz pianist have to play classical in order to be 'legit' and I don't quite like that attitude. I love classical music, but some people's attitude about it is kind of a turn off.

When I met him, he was studying a Mozart Concerto.

I read that he's recently studying classical piano with a teacher.. but from what I know he did not have classical training growing up.. he played mostly by ear. i guess I should make it clear that a good number of jazz pianists did not have an extensive conservatory-level classical training.

I am not really for or against classical training.. i think its good if it's something you want to learn, I just don't like people who says you have to do classical in order to jazz, or people says that you shouldn't do classical if you want to do jazz, everyone is different.

etcetera,I'm glad you decided to respond to my post eight months later It's been so long I wonder if my views on this subject remain unchanged. Probably so!. A few additional thoughts come to mind.
You have to admit,a classically trained musician whom desires to make that transition to playing jazz is gonna approach this task with a whole different perspective than one whom initially relies on his ear with minimal technique and proficiency in the beginning years as a growing jazz musician. The classically trained musician is at an advantage and at the same time a disadvantage in learning and playing the true essence of jazz. The classically trained musician hopefully has reached a certain proficiency level whereas he can hack through an Oscar Peterson transcribed solo,hopefully getting a grasp on what Oscar is doing initially through imitation. The "green jazz musician"in the beginning does not have the facility or technique to even attempt this route in the beginning. His only knowledge base is off the street through his own creativity and improvisation. Of course,he learns from mentors along the way.The disadvantage of the classically trained musician and there are exceptions to the rule is many have a hard time "swinging " because his approach is the same approach as to learning a Beethoven Sonata.
Now with one that is learning to play on the street one can't even imagine learning and playing an Oscar solo transcription. I can imagine for many classical pianists,one's idea and perception of playing Jazz piano is playing Gerhwin's Rhapsody in Blue. I remember years back going to see a so called jazz pianist at a local after hours jazz hang out for musicians. Though this pianist had the chops and technique of the masters,he among his peers gained minimal respect as a jazz musician. Creativity almost always gains more respect over virtuosity.
I actually have respect for blues pianists in that though limited in their facility,one has to rely on "feel". I've seen more so called jazz pianists that can't play the blues to save their life. I've seen more jazz guitarists out of Berklee that can't play guitar.I rather play with Stevie Ray Vaughn than some guitarist in the college stage band. My advice,Move out of your parent's house into a local rooming house to live the life as a jazz or blues musician giving true meaning to playing the blues as a jazz musician.

pianobroker,

i wrote this in a different post, but studying jazz at school can be quite frustrating, mostly because you do so much classical stuff that you spend very little time on jazz. You read through chord changes and solos, and a lot of times you forget to use your ears.

I heard a story about this very famous jazz bassist.. he will give you a free lesson but he ask you to bring a real book that you are using. And the first thing he does is tear the real book apart and tell you never to use it again.

I know that is kind of extreme, but it takes very different skill to, let say transcribe/play Oscar Peterson's solo by ear without writing it down than to study it out of a transcription book.. classical training can prepare you technically but it will not prepare you for that kind of learning by ear.

I agree that the best way to learn is to go out there and play.. but I guess the problem is that there are less and less place where you can go and play.. my teachers talked about how they used to be more places to gig and cut their teeth, but now there's less and less..

My teachers also told me The school i used to go to had midnight jam sessions all the time decades ago, now there are hardly any, partly because the whole security situation makes it harder to find a room that late.

unfortunately, school is all they got for some people, and its not easy finding that kind of enviroment..

etcetra, I totally agree and sympathize with your comment about lack of places to go and play. The only way to learn how you will sound with a group is to play with one and there are precious few places to do that.

I go to a number of "jam sessions" here in town but the repertoire (safe Real Book tunes) and the logistics of being a piano player (bring your own gear? play the beat-up Wurly?) make them less than ideal, though much appreciated.

MonksDream,

When i went to school I was in LA.. there were jam sessions if you look for them.. but from what I was told its nothing like what it used to be.

I am surprised to hear that some of my teachers weren't very good at all when they started.. but they were able to play 5 nights a gig and get better that way.. Of course they practiced, they had an enviroment where they could play all the time if they wanted to.

I remember few of my friends i had in schools used to find a way to open the rehearsal rooms and jam, it was fun, I just thought.. it would be like that all the time.

i guess the only thing you can do is keep on playing and make things happen for yourself. I wish you good luck.

btw the reason I am not all that crazy about classical training is because when i started college, I had a classical teacher, who basically told me that I won't be doing much jazz while I am in college.. I will be doing classical so that when i get out of school I would be ready to play jazz..

It was bogus, I could have acquired chops from transcribing and doing jazz stuff.. I quit after one semester and i was glad.. I knew friends who went through the program and it was ironic.. I wasn't as technically proficient as they were, but they all envyed me for the kinds of lines/idea I was playing. most of my friends from that school stopped playing jazz after college.

Although mainly known as a jazz organ player, I don't think Joey DeFrancesco had any formal training in classical instruction, other than what he picked up from his father who was a pro organist himself. Also in an interview, Joey stated he is not a good sight reader at all and relies on his ear.

Another fine jazz pianist in the bay area and a staff psychiatrist, Denny Zeitland was not classically trained.

I was not classically trained at all and didn't even work on any Bach until I went to Berklee. I actually had no desire to learn nor listen to any classical music until I went to school there and then really got into Bach, which helped me learn hand independance, reading and fingering. I dabble with Mozart, Bach, Chopin, but only for study, not to perform or master it. I'm not disciplined enough to struggle through all that work. My classical guru is Glenn Gould, the real Bach master and Horowitz.

katt

nitekatt2008z,

I am kind of the same here.. I started music late, and right now I just want to focus mainly on jazz stuff. I would like to learn Chopin etudes and Beethoven's Waldenstein sonata.. etc in the future, but I don't see my self practicing them 5 hrs a day for 4 months to play them at a performance level.

I was surprise to hear that Kenny Werner didn't go very far in classical (according to an interview). I guess its different for everyone

Reference, on the subject of jazz pianists that had formal training. I rate the Japanese pianist, Makota Ozone as one of the best current classical trained players. Try and obtain the DVD duo, with him and Garry Burton Vibes, cannot recall the title this moment.

If you like the great Beethoven Sonatas, there is a new DVD out of Daniel Barenboim playing the complete piano sonatas in Berlin, I have vol.2, of 2 at least.EMI Classics.

Erroll Garner never learned to play the piano classically and only by ear in any case jazz plus his popular song 'Misty'. Conversely, Fats Waller did and mostly on the church organ originally. One of the greatest jazz composers ever, his compositions are still common to most people, having stood the test of time.

swingal,

PS; The Beetoven compositions I like greatly but will never be able to play them as I'm only a 'by ear player' and jazz solely,cannot read a note of muisic.