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#1130552 - 04/12/05 03:08 AM fellow jazz veterans...  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 190
Sweep88 Offline
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Sweep88  Offline
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Ohio
I've been hammering a new love, the diminished V of the V before resolving to its V11. The half steps down are a cinch. The half steps up...Bb, Eb, ect....arrrrrrrrhhh.... I feel like a beginner. I'm hoping that what? Mechanics will take over eventually? Frustrating....


I try to live, love and laugh as much as I can every day, because every day may be my last
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#1130553 - 04/12/05 06:06 AM Re: fellow jazz veterans...  
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hgiles Offline
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e.g. A7b9 / D7 / D7+11 ? Are you using upper structures? If so you can use F#-C in the left hand for all three chords to simplify the left hand...


Haywood
-------------
#1130554 - 04/12/05 02:34 PM Re: fellow jazz veterans...  
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Sweep88 Offline
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Ohio
I just wrote that down hgiles...I'm gonna try it tonight then I'll get back to ya..thanks


I try to live, love and laugh as much as I can every day, because every day may be my last
#1130555 - 04/13/05 02:42 AM Re: fellow jazz veterans...  
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Sweep88 Offline
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Ohio
Hey hgiles...

Not sure what you mean by upper structures, I'm assuming you're talking voicing? F#-C works with
D7, of course the 3rd and 7th, but cant find the relationship to A7b9.
What I meant in my first post was Ddim resolving to G7, Gdim resolving to C7, Cdim to F7, ect. ect.
99% of the time I either stride or walk tenths, of course melody in the right. Whats driving me crazy is the flats...learning the tenth inversions of the diminished chords before they resolve. Constant brain farts I think..


I try to live, love and laugh as much as I can every day, because every day may be my last
#1130556 - 04/19/05 01:58 PM Re: fellow jazz veterans...  
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hgiles Offline
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Wow, it's been a while on this one.

A7 is easily substituted by A7b9. By upper structures I mean a triad over a tritone. The tritone would be F#-C or C-F# in the left hand.

You're right, F#-C are the 3d and 7th of a D7 chord and works well there. What isn't readily obvious is that F#-C are also part of the diminished scale that an A7b9 chord is derived.

Remember: A Bb C C# Eb E F# G. This is the same scale that ALL of the following chords are derived from: A7b9, C7b9, Eb7b9, F#7b9, Bbo, Dbo, Eo, Go.

In any chord derived from a diminished scale all of the notes are playable (no avoid notes) and considered consonant.

You will notice that F# and C appear in this scale for A7b9. Hence you can use it in your voicing. Likewise, you can use any other tone in the scale in the voicing if it sounds right to you.

Personally I would try: LH: F#-C : RH: E A C#. It should work just fine for A7b9 (or A7+9 for that matter) and lead very well into a D7 chord.


Haywood
-------------
#1130557 - 04/19/05 03:23 PM Re: fellow jazz veterans...  
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Sweep88 Offline
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Kool, hgiles....I'll try that. Glad to see you back... Lol...I thought you got kidnapped or something....


I try to live, love and laugh as much as I can every day, because every day may be my last
#1130558 - 04/19/05 03:30 PM Re: fellow jazz veterans...  
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Sweep88 Offline
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hey hgiles duh I forgot....will you look at my last post in improv/playinh by ear by Thomosh?


I try to live, love and laugh as much as I can every day, because every day may be my last
#1130559 - 04/20/05 06:11 AM Re: fellow jazz veterans...  
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hgiles Offline
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I thought about this some more and remembered that you are trying to improve on what you feel is a long D7 chord, right?

Here is a device that Bill Evans used quite a bit.

1) Change the D7 to a D7b9 chord
2) Start with this voicing: F#-C F-A
3) Transpose down (or up) a minor 3d
4) Do #3 again
5) Do #3 again ... you can keep doing this til you run out of room, but by now you should be back to the voicing you started with.

It's cool!!


Haywood
-------------
#1130560 - 04/21/05 11:47 AM Re: fellow jazz veterans...  
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Rob Mullins Offline
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Rob Mullins  Offline
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Hi,
Moving the half steps up and down can be done easier when you just calmly find your first voicing and then make note of where all your fingers are visually. Then move each one up a half step up at a time until you have moved the whole chord up. Seems to work well for my students. You might find your chord progression and some other cool ones in my book "Jazz Piano Voicings" published by Hal Leonard and available at Amazon.com. Best of luck!


Rob Mullins
www.planetmullins.com
Recording Artist and Jazz Piano Instructor
#1130561 - 04/21/05 02:25 PM Re: fellow jazz veterans...  
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Sweep88 Offline
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Ohio
I'm going to try that again hgiles, thanks...
I have another queston for you, Rob, but I want to try what you said first....thanks


I try to live, love and laugh as much as I can every day, because every day may be my last
#1130562 - 05/16/05 05:59 PM Re: fellow jazz veterans...  
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hgiles Offline
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Charlottesville Virginia
Quote
Originally posted by Sweep88:
Ddim resolving to G7, Gdim resolving to C7, Cdim to F7, ect. ect.
|Ddim - G7 | Gdim - C7 | Cdim - F7 |Fdim - Bb7 |

When I first learned diminished scales I learned them in relation to a V7b9 scale, so it's easier for me to translate them back to a V7b9 equivalent chord/scale.

|E7b9 - G7 | A7b9 - C7 | D7b9 - F7 |G7b9 - Bb7|

This is essentially the same as what you started with. Remember, that diminished scales repeat at intervals of a minor third, so I am going to transpose the diminished chords up a minor third:

|G7b9 - G7 | C7b9 - C7 | F7b9 - F7 |Bb7b9 - Bb7|

Again, the scales/voicings are equivalent to what you started with. Now the ROOTS are the same, so the differences between two successive harmonies with the same root are readily apparent.

G7b9: G Ab Bb B Db D E F
G7: G A B C D E F

One last thing. Since you are going to be practicing this through the cycle. It might be easier on your brain to know that...

G7b9 : G Ab Bb B Db D E F
Bb7b9 : G Ab Bb B Db D E F
Db7b9 : G Ab Bb B Db D E F
E7b9 : G Ab Bb B Db D E F
and
Abdim : G Ab Bb B Db D E F
B dim : G Ab Bb B Db D E F
D dim : G Ab Bb B Db D E F
F dim : G Ab Bb B Db D E F

... are all the same scale!! What works for a voicing for one can work for a voicing for any other.

So every three iterations you are going to end up back on the same diminished scale or:

|G7b9 - G7|C7b9 - C7|F7b9 - F7|
|G7b9- Bb7|C7b9 - Eb7|F7b9-Ab7|
|G7b9 - Db7|C7b9 - Gb7|F7b9 - B7|
|G7b9- E7|C7b9 - A7|F7b9-D7|


Haywood
-------------
#1130563 - 05/18/05 03:20 AM Re: fellow jazz veterans...  
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Sweep88 Offline
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Sweep88  Offline
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Ohio
Gotcha giles, actually I already knew that but I want to re-burn my brain to keep myself honest. Origionally, my post was tenth inversions of the dim 5 of the 5. I'm a stride player (tenths) and swing bass, so in esscence there should be 3 tenth inversions per the dim 5 of the 5 chord. So instead of three diminished chords for any scale, for swing bass should be 9. What I dont fully understand yet is why some swing bass tenths resolve better than others.


I try to live, love and laugh as much as I can every day, because every day may be my last
#1130564 - 05/18/05 11:37 PM Re: fellow jazz veterans...  
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Rob Mullins Offline
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Rob Mullins  Offline
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LA CA
Sweep,
Could it be because the ear hears the bottom tone of the inversions as the root since you are playing in the lower register of the instrument?


Rob Mullins
www.planetmullins.com
Recording Artist and Jazz Piano Instructor
#1130565 - 05/19/05 03:21 AM Re: fellow jazz veterans...  
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Sweep88 Offline
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Sweep88  Offline
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Ohio
Rob that a possibility... When thats the case, the chord has to be oppositely voiced in the right hand which is another problem, because it makes one play too mechanically instead of letting the melody flow. I'll get it though....I've climbed bigger walls than that.


I try to live, love and laugh as much as I can every day, because every day may be my last
#1130566 - 05/19/05 08:43 AM Re: fellow jazz veterans...  
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hgiles Offline
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hgiles  Offline
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Charlottesville Virginia
Now I'm lost!

With 10ths your inversions are always sixths, so you really only have two scenarios.

M10th (3rd) inverts to a m6th
m10th (3rd) inverts to a M6th

(intervals between any two notes always adds up to nine and their 'polarities' must cancel)

I think the difficulty would hinge upon whether your coming from a Major 6th or a minor 6th and what you're going to, (which I am not sure about).


Haywood
-------------
#1130567 - 05/19/05 07:35 PM Re: fellow jazz veterans...  
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Sweep88 Offline
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Sweep88  Offline
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Ohio
giles..... Ever since i've been talking with you I have to say for the first time I honestly dont have a clue what you're saying... Either I misunderstood something or you're not communicating exactly what you mean..... Elaborate please??


I try to live, love and laugh as much as I can every day, because every day may be my last
#1130568 - 05/19/05 07:37 PM Re: fellow jazz veterans...  
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Sweep88 Offline
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Sweep88  Offline
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Ohio
By the way..from previous threads..is your name Haywood?


I try to live, love and laugh as much as I can every day, because every day may be my last
#1130569 - 05/20/05 05:50 AM Re: fellow jazz veterans...  
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hgiles Offline
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hgiles  Offline
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Yeah, my name is Haywood.

Sweep88, I think we may be at the limitations of what we can discuss theoretically without sheet music (staff paper). Now wouldn't that be cool if there was that sort of thing on here?

The interval thing I was explaining, which I am sure you already know is simply:

C-E = major 3rd, its inversion:
E-C = minor 6th. 3+6 = 9, major+minor cancel (neutralize).

another example:

D-Ab = dim 5th, its inversion:
Ab-D = aug 4th. 5+4 = 9, dim+aug neutralize.

another example:

G-C = perf 4th, it's inversion:
C-G = perf 5th. 4+5=9, perf+perf neutralize

another example, though a bit odd in jazz music:

C-A# = aug 6th, it's inversion:
A#-C = dim 3rd. 6+3=9, aug+dim neutralize.

... and on it goes. An inversion of any interval (two notes) always adds up to a neutral 9.

Since you're dealing with a compound (more than an octave) interval -- a 10th. You have to reduce it to it's equavalent simple interval -- a 3rd. If you invert a 3rd (10th), you are going to end up with some kind of a 6th. 3+6=9.


Haywood
-------------
#1130570 - 05/20/05 08:25 PM Re: fellow jazz veterans...  
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Sweep88 Offline
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Ok Haywood....
I'm going to start a new thread for You and I......Others can follow if they wish, I really believe you and I are on the same page, just from different planets, and I'm VERY curious...


I try to live, love and laugh as much as I can every day, because every day may be my last

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