Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
77 registered members (7uturu, Beakybird, Animisha, Cheshire Chris, Alex C, 19 invisible), 1,131 guests, and 3 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Ok... how come no one has mentioned Richard Clayderman? #1129544
01/10/05 06:11 PM
01/10/05 06:11 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 263
Mexico City
D
DuCamp Offline OP
Full Member
DuCamp  Offline OP
Full Member
D

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 263
Mexico City
I liked his pieces when I was very little and I learned how to play the piano when I was around 8 or 9 by playing by ear his pieces.
Right now I'm more interested in more "serious" works, but I won't deny that he has in his repertoire nice melodies... what's your opinion on his music? Or similar pianists for that matter?


Visit my architecture studio website (it's new and soon to be available in english)
Protoform Studio
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Ok... how come no one has mentioned Richard Clayderman? #1129545
01/10/05 06:59 PM
01/10/05 06:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,280
New England
J
Jeanne W Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Jeanne W  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
J

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,280
New England
There was some discussion of Richard Clayderman, I believe in the Classical Pianist Corner forum, some time ago. If I recall correctly, Mr. Clayderman garnered some, shall we say, less than stellar comments from some PW members. The thought was, I believe, that his music is very simplistic.

Jeanne W


Music is about the heart and so should a piano be about the heart. - Pique

1920 Steinway A3
My Piano Delivery Thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/8776.html#000000
Re: Ok... how come no one has mentioned Richard Clayderman? #1129546
01/10/05 07:09 PM
01/10/05 07:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,056
not in Japan anymore
ShiroKuro Offline
4000 Post Club Member
ShiroKuro  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,056
not in Japan anymore
He is hugely popular in Japan (almost disgusting so) Years ago he had a weekly TV program in Japan, something like "Learn Piano with Richard Clayderman." You could say that his music is simplistic (or some might say sappy) but what he has done in Japan is make the piano accessible to a lot of people, which I think is definitely a good thing.

I think his music appeals to a lot of people because it's easy on the ears, and the melodies are easy to follow (nothing wrong with that) It's kind of like in between easy listening and classical IMO. And if you're into romantic, wafting sounds (whatever that means) you will probably like most of the stuff he plays. I like some of the pieces he has made famous that are actually by someone else... What is that guy's name?!!! Playing these pieces provides very good practice for left hand smoothness over long stretches of arpeggios.

ETA but there's some kind of negativity surrounding Richard Clayderman, like if you say you like his music then you are not a serious student of piano. I don't think that's fair. (of course, I am the opposite of a musical snob, I hate that term too, because I love just about every kind of music and find wonderful things in most everything i hear).

If you like his stuff, play it! There are tons of sheet music of pieces that he's made famous, and of course lots of CDs, and learning to play his pieces well will certainly be good practice.


Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: Ok... how come no one has mentioned Richard Clayderman? #1129547
01/10/05 07:46 PM
01/10/05 07:46 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 263
Mexico City
D
DuCamp Offline OP
Full Member
DuCamp  Offline OP
Full Member
D

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 263
Mexico City
Actually, I play some of his pieces.
It's just that I wanted to know how's his music received in these forums cause I've never seen his name being tossed around in discussions.
He is so popular in Latin America, especially after he recorded an album with arrangements of many of our bolero composers' works.
And yes, it's easy music... but I support your opinion that it has made the piano accesible to many people. Something I respect about him is that I saw a live video of him performing and he is a very decent pianist. Very clean technique.

I had the oposite reaction with Raśl DiBlasio (he is kinda like the latino Clayderman) cause he was very popular too, playing music written by Bebu Silveti and also traditional music from various latin roots. But I lost all respect I had for him when I went to one of his concerts and saw that he has a horrible finger technique that caused a lot of very ugly audible mistakes. I couldn't believe it cause from his recordings you immediately assume that he is a flashy pianist.

Anyone has had any experience like this? You go to a live performance only to discover that the "star" pianist was probably not the one playing in the recording session?


Visit my architecture studio website (it's new and soon to be available in english)
Protoform Studio
Re: Ok... how come no one has mentioned Richard Clayderman? #1129548
01/10/05 10:53 PM
01/10/05 10:53 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 415
LA CA
Rob Mullins Offline
Full Member
Rob Mullins  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 415
LA CA
Good comments about a guy that at least has the guts to get out there and take all heat that artists get from the sit at homes.


Rob Mullins
www.planetmullins.com
Recording Artist and Jazz Piano Instructor
Re: Ok... how come no one has mentioned Richard Clayderman? #1129549
01/10/05 11:29 PM
01/10/05 11:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 263
Mexico City
D
DuCamp Offline OP
Full Member
DuCamp  Offline OP
Full Member
D

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 263
Mexico City
That's something that my teacher of the sight reading assignature always repeats to us... that musicians (let it be students or professionals) many times are criticized for being people that aren't really contributing to society (and we all know that is not true), but in the worst case, it takes a lot of balls to stand in front of an audience and perform, it doesn't matter what you perform.
A lot of people can't even talk to a stranger without getting nervous.


Visit my architecture studio website (it's new and soon to be available in english)
Protoform Studio
Re: Ok... how come no one has mentioned Richard Clayderman? #1129550
01/13/05 10:49 AM
01/13/05 10:49 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 262
Maryland, USA
Spin Doctor Offline
Full Member
Spin Doctor  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 262
Maryland, USA
Yeah, well...

In my opinion, Richard C is to pop, what Kenny G is to Jazz.

When Kenny G was getting started, turning jazz into a smooth, homogenious solution palatable to the masses, the main argument for tolerating this schlock was, "his music will turn more people on to Jazz." Well, it's about 20 years later and I don't believe anymore people are listening to jazz as a population cross section than were 20 years ago. Actually if anything, the percentage has probably gone down. Thanks Kenny...

The moral of the story is: Yeah, it may take guts to get up and play whatever you play, but that doesn't mean what you're playing doesn't suck.

------


"Some people's idea of free speech is that they are free to say what they like but if anyone says anything back, that is an outrage."

-- Winston Churchill
Re: Ok... how come no one has mentioned Richard Clayderman? #1129551
01/14/05 01:53 AM
01/14/05 01:53 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,056
not in Japan anymore
ShiroKuro Offline
4000 Post Club Member
ShiroKuro  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,056
not in Japan anymore
Ok, Spin Doctor, I really had to laugh at your post!!! (Especially because I really dislike Kenny G...)


Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: Ok... how come no one has mentioned Richard Clayderman? #1129552
01/14/05 03:37 PM
01/14/05 03:37 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,102
Helsinki, Finland
F
fnork Offline
2000 Post Club Member
fnork  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
F

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,102
Helsinki, Finland
agreed with Spin Doctor. Richard Clayderman is crap...

But there are more than just the music that I don't like about him, it's more of a personal thing... You see, I have a grandmother who for a few years gave me CDs by Richard EVERY CHRISTMAS. Well, he plays piano, so it should be interresting for me, right? Here you have a 6CD-box with Richard Clayderman, merry christmas... yeah. She has no idea of who Clayderman is, but he plays piano so she figures it should be interresting for me to hear it.
It is interresting to hear it, but not in the way she thinks laugh
She's a member of this book-club where she sometimes get's things 10% cheaper or something like that. And everything in this book-club is CRAP, really. It's a terrible club! But she likes it, since she gets things a bit cheaper. She feels like she has to buy something just because she can get it a few bucks cheaper... my older sister just got two books from her as a present, and it seems like she just walked in to the bookstore without having an idea of what to buy, and then she just randomly picked two books. She didn't know anything about the books, they meant nothing for her... and they'll probably mean nothing for my sister either.


Another funny thing is that a friend to my older sister ADORES Richard Clayderman, she loves everything about him. So I gave her all of my CDs - a good way to get rid of that crap laugh

Re: Ok... how come no one has mentioned Richard Clayderman? #1129553
01/14/05 03:38 PM
01/14/05 03:38 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,102
Helsinki, Finland
F
fnork Offline
2000 Post Club Member
fnork  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
F

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,102
Helsinki, Finland
by the way, I really don't like his touch.

Re: Ok... how come no one has mentioned Richard Clayderman? #1129554
01/14/05 03:40 PM
01/14/05 03:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 262
Maryland, USA
Spin Doctor Offline
Full Member
Spin Doctor  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 262
Maryland, USA
I did have one Richard Clayderman album. I got it just to see what the fuss was about. Man, after one playing, I couldn't wait to get that thing off my turntable. I ended up just throwing it away. I couldn't live with myself if I actually gave it to someone... wink

-----


"Some people's idea of free speech is that they are free to say what they like but if anyone says anything back, that is an outrage."

-- Winston Churchill
Re: Ok... how come no one has mentioned Richard Clayderman? #1129555
01/14/05 07:09 PM
01/14/05 07:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,280
New England
J
Jeanne W Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Jeanne W  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
J

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,280
New England
Boy, there are some pretty brutal things being said here. And, yes, I've snickered at some of the comments made, but we're talking about a fellow pianist - and human being. And he's being bashed. I think that's unfortunate. As some others have said, I give Clayderman credit for having the wherewithall to get up and perform.

Sometimes if there's nothing nice to be said, it's best to say nothing at all?

Maybe we need a "Kinder, Gentler Forum"??

(Cripey! Hope I don't get bashed now. I'm just thinking that there are some pretty strong things being said here, is all. If I was Mr. Clayderman and read those comments, I'd be feeling pretty bad right now.)

Jeanne W


Music is about the heart and so should a piano be about the heart. - Pique

1920 Steinway A3
My Piano Delivery Thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/8776.html#000000
Re: Ok... how come no one has mentioned Richard Clayderman? #1129556
01/15/05 08:02 AM
01/15/05 08:02 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,102
Helsinki, Finland
F
fnork Offline
2000 Post Club Member
fnork  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
F

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,102
Helsinki, Finland
Jeanne W:

I just expressed my opinion. I don't like him, but it's fine for you to like him. As you can see, other people who posted here don't share my opinion anyway...
I just feel that virtually any pianist (beginner pianist if you like...) could get the attention Richard gets. He's not saying ANYTHING with his music, and he doesn't seem to have more technique than any average pianoplayer.... on the other hand, we have a lot of great pianist who have something to say through their music. I prefer listening to them than to hear some mindless "ballade pour adeline"-crap or whatever.

Re: Ok... how come no one has mentioned Richard Clayderman? #1129557
01/15/05 09:40 AM
01/15/05 09:40 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,483
Ohio, USA
signa Offline
8000 Post Club Member
signa  Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,483
Ohio, USA
i used to like him when i was not playing piano myself at all (long time ago). it's sort of easy listening to me and gave me some sort of romantic feeling sometimes. but i don't listen to him anymore. he doesn't sound that serious anyway, with all that easy arrangements he played of all other people's originals.

Re: Ok... how come no one has mentioned Richard Clayderman? #1129558
01/16/05 01:55 PM
01/16/05 01:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,280
New England
J
Jeanne W Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Jeanne W  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
J

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,280
New England
fnork:

Just to clarify things, I have listened to soundclips of Clayderman's music on the net. I am *NOT* a fan of his music. I agree his music is simplistic (a fact, not necessarily a criticism), and it's not my "cup of tea".

I can appreciate strong reactions - and your point of view. I just think there are ways of discussing things without coming down so hard on a person.

I guess it's just hard for me to read such strong things being said against another person. I feel for the other person (Clayderman), and also, for any other readers here who may like Clayderman, who may have been scared off.

Jeanne W


Music is about the heart and so should a piano be about the heart. - Pique

1920 Steinway A3
My Piano Delivery Thread:
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/8776.html#000000
Re: Ok... how come no one has mentioned Richard Clayderman? #1129559
01/16/05 02:55 PM
01/16/05 02:55 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 263
Mexico City
D
DuCamp Offline OP
Full Member
DuCamp  Offline OP
Full Member
D

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 263
Mexico City
Some more opinions of mine about him:

I don't think an average piano player can perform like him. He is no Liszt at the piano but mostly he performs arrangements by french authors that know that the majority of the people won't stand through an entire 'serious' piece composed by Chopin, Beethoven or any other great composer, so they compose something that people can enjoy efortless while doing everyday tasks or just relaxing. And yes, they make money out of it, big deal. If you are a professional pianist, you will be performing for money too, so...

Anyways, as far as I know from interviews, he used to be a studio pianist before he was famous, and studio pianists require some respectable degree of ability to get a job because of all the collaborative environment they have to deal with (and believe me, many piano students have a really hard time playing in an ensemble) that's why he got that job of performing this music... and I have heard a couple of his recordings on academic solo pieces, not the ones with small ensemble arrangements, but complete original pieces like Arabesque No.1 by Debussy. They are not compared to Gieseking's perfomances or Egorov's, and still are better renditions than that of any average pianist so don't kid yourself that anyone can play like him.

Now, I do search right now for other kind of works because of my ideologies about music and because I don't care that much to please an audience (which is just kidding myself cause as a musician I need to communicate to many people as possible), but look at it with no biased opinions: in the end his music and playing style has a universal appeal wether you like it or not, and has communicated with a large audience that most pianist here, including myself, can only dream about having some day, if at all. Just ask your average person who Clayderman is and who Volodos or Ashkenazy is, and tell me which name gets more recognized.

Like Jeanne W, I think that the opinions about him are somehow harsh. It's not ugly music, otherwise, people wouldn't buy it or attend his performances. So, are people dumb? If they are and you recognize this as a high level pianist, then you have little or no audience, except for art critics, and those don't even pay most of the times for tickets or recordings! All this is from the stand point of a wanna-be pianist that is aware that nothing is really wrong or right in a definitive way...

Ok, I'm done laugh


Visit my architecture studio website (it's new and soon to be available in english)
Protoform Studio
Re: Ok... how come no one has mentioned Richard Clayderman? #1129560
01/16/05 03:50 PM
01/16/05 03:50 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,102
Helsinki, Finland
F
fnork Offline
2000 Post Club Member
fnork  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
F

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,102
Helsinki, Finland
Quote
Just ask your average person who Clayderman is and who Volodos or Ashkenazy is, and tell me which name gets more recognized.
True. Isn't that quite sad? That people who actually work hard and have their own distinctive sound get so much less attention than some crappy pianist who tours around the world and plays stuff like ballade pour adeline for large audiences? I read that a TV broadcast in China with Richard Clayederman attracted 800 million viewers.

Anyway, there's no reason to discuss this anymore. If you like him then fine.

Re: Ok... how come no one has mentioned Richard Clayderman? #1129561
01/16/05 04:49 PM
01/16/05 04:49 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 263
Mexico City
D
DuCamp Offline OP
Full Member
DuCamp  Offline OP
Full Member
D

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 263
Mexico City
Nah, you are missing the point...

Why does it have to be sad that people like something you don't like? I'm not discussing if I like him or not, or if you have my permission to hate him cause that's something you can't really discuss. It's just that I don't think people should qualify his music as crap, or ANY music. You don't like it cause it's shallow, cool. My point: you really don't know what inspired those compositions anyway, and whatever that inspiration was it's easy for the majority to relate to it in one way or the other. I also remember a discussion here where someone was stating that avant garde or experimental music was crap because it's too complex, it's full of stuck up artists associations, or because few people don't know what is about. And come on, avant garde it's charged with rationalism and many different and interesting aesthetic values.

Go to the other extreme: Lang Lang. He works quite a lot, plays what's perceived as serious music by the knowledgeable, has impressive technical abilities and people like him, but pianist and many critics don't respect him anyways, and mostly because he makes a lot of funny faces when performing. I've never seen anyone mocking Brendel for continuosly making expressions as if he has some sort of stomach constipation. I don't know what is it that sparks these kinds of bashing reactions, but it's not healthy for anyone's own perception of music in general. I can almost assure you that most people who don't like a pianist or some sort of music or item are just reacting to what other people diss about them (not saying fnork that this is your case.)

Legal Disclaimer: Not afiliated to Richard Clayderman, nor its associates. Do not eat Richard Clayderman.


Visit my architecture studio website (it's new and soon to be available in english)
Protoform Studio
Re: Ok... how come no one has mentioned Richard Clayderman? #1129562
01/17/05 10:01 AM
01/17/05 10:01 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,102
Helsinki, Finland
F
fnork Offline
2000 Post Club Member
fnork  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
F

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,102
Helsinki, Finland
Quote
It's just that I don't think people should qualify his music as crap, or ANY music. You don't like it cause it's shallow, cool. My point: you really don't know what inspired those compositions anyway, and whatever that inspiration was it's easy for the majority to relate to it in one way or the other.
DuCamp, you can think what you want, but... I don't really know what inspired Britney Spears to become a popstar either, but her music is crap nevertheless. I mean, that shouldn't even be discussed. It's quite obvious. I think it's quite obvious in Clayermans case too, but I see that you disagree.
I read some about him, apparently he was quite a child prodigy. He entered the Paris conservatory at early age and won prizes as a classical pianist when he was young. I don't know what changed him and made him perform pop songs instead. Perhaps he saw that most people didn't recognize names like Ashkenazy anyway, so he tried a different path instead. Obviously a more succesful one...

Re: Ok... how come no one has mentioned Richard Clayderman? #1129563
01/17/05 04:32 PM
01/17/05 04:32 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 263
Mexico City
D
DuCamp Offline OP
Full Member
DuCamp  Offline OP
Full Member
D

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 263
Mexico City
Quote
I don't really know what inspired Britney Spears to become a popstar either, but her music is crap nevertheless. I mean, that shouldn't even be discussed. It's quite obvious.
You are missing the point again... it's not about me liking Clayderman or you disliking him. It's about being intolerant to the existance of other music and call it crap just because you don't like it. It can actually cripple your appreciation of music... just because Britney Spears is not welcomed in the academic music circle because she doesn't have a classical training or posseses the über-voice of a Kathleen Battle, it doesn't mean that she can't perform vocal music or entertain people with it. It's pop music, so? It's crap? No, cause it has good arrangements and production that manage to catch an audience that receives it and enjoys pop music. What you really don't like is the marketing ambience that surrounds that music, which is a whole other topic and the real reason why the integrity (not the quality) of much pop music (and in a lot of cases academic music suffers this too) is put to question. The Beatles would be crap too if you wanna use strict academic ideologies as the measure for all things musical. But yes, you'd have to be in certain setup to appreciate that certain music, and neither one of us can make Clayderman or Britney a necessary part of our music ideologies because of the preferences and education we have acquired in our ambient as academic music students/performers/listeners. But again, just because we "aren“t there" it means the music itself is crap. That's what I'm talking about... no political correctness mumbo jumbo or lack of opinion, just accepting awareness and getting rid of prejudice.


Visit my architecture studio website (it's new and soon to be available in english)
Protoform Studio
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Shop Our Online Store!
Shop Our Store Online
Shop PianoSupplies.com

Did you know Piano World has an online store, and that it's loaded with goodies pianists and music lovers want?
Check it out and place your order.

Special Purchase!
Keyboard and Roses Piano Bench Cushion Keyboard & Roses 14"x30" piano bench cushions Regularly sold for $79 to $100, now only $39. (while supplies last)

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Piano marvel vs playground sessions?
by chongjasmine. 03/26/19 05:50 AM
Lifting the CA98
by iLogic. 03/26/19 02:58 AM
How much is this piano worth
by humble_pianist. 03/25/19 05:49 PM
What's Hot!!
PIANO TEACHERS Please read this!
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics191,131
Posts2,810,925
Members92,879
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

Sweetwater

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2