2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Who's Online Now
35 members (beeboss, Animisha, Cominut, brennbaer, crab89, aphexdisklavier, admodios, busa, drumour, Foxtrot3, 3 invisible), 1,277 guests, and 258 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 2 1 2
#1129159 04/11/08 11:40 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 331
majones Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 331
Betty, I have tried to search your ---

1) Please read the Why sharps and flats? topic - I posted (#11)about what I consider an important correction and understand in the minds of musicians using tetrachords to build major scales.

(*-W-W-H)(W-W-W-H)
LH 5-4-3-2 RH 2-3-4-5)

Using the search tool I was unable to pull up anything. I am interested to hear what you have to say. Can you direct me to your paper, link address etc.

Thank you,

Malcolm

#1129160 04/12/08 12:21 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Quote

Using the search tool I was unable to pull up anything. I am interested to hear what you have to say. Can you direct me to your paper, link address etc.

Thank you,

Malcolm [/QB]
Probably this one

#1129161 04/12/08 08:08 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Majones, that linked thread can be confusing since we change topics. What you are looking for is an exchange between me and Betty where we are taking the WWHWWWH and put different sets of brackets around that grouping. In Betty's part, she explains how she groups the tones and semi-tones into two sets of tetrachords (4 notes) and there is an orientation on the fingerboard that ties together with that. This is the part that is pertinent to your question: that description.

The thread is discussing the history of our modern notation system, and I'm still discussing how Guido d'Arezzi's old solfege system can be seen in our modern major scale, so I group the notes and semitones to reflect the historical system. Betty then switches to the perception of tetrachords and how this helps in learning to play the scale on the piano. That's the part you're after since it relates to your question here. There is a reference to being able to locate the fifth note which I'd like to expand on in the next post.

#1129162 04/12/08 09:16 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
A couple of months ago I was getting oriented to the keyboard, since piano is not my primary instrument. I ran across two systems for orienting for all the key signatures, but they had the same idea in common: going along the I chords of a scale, and the fact that we have five fingers for playing those chords, which is important for the piano as a principle.

The system for scales that is embedded in the other thread is preceded by a chord exercise which Betty taught me, which also holds other principles. As follows:

The circle of fifths gives us all the keys in ascending order of sharps, and descending order of flats. I.e. C major (no sharps or flats), G major (one sharp), D major (two sharps) etc. So the ascending order of keys in the circle of fifths is CGDAEBF#C#. The next key is always has the starting note or tonic that was the fifth note of the preceding key. Thus, in C major, G is the fifth note, and the fifth note is is also the tonic of G major, which is the next key in the circle of fifths.

When we play the I chord, we use five fingers, and on the right hand, the pinky or # 5 rests on the 5th note, which is also the note for the tonic of the next key in the circle. Follow so far? We get a visual and tactile way of orienting ourselves. An exercise ensues from this:

You rest your right hand on the first five notes of the C major scale so that you are covering CDEFG. You play the I chord: CEG. Your fifth finger is on G. Move your hand so that your thumb is on that G, and now you are covering the five notes, GABCD. Play the I chord GBD. Move your hand to cover DEF#GA. Play I chord DF#A. etc.

As you become accustomed to the patterns of what and black keys for the sharps and flats you move from chord to chord along the circle of fifths this way until your hands can find their way easily to each starting position of the scale. As with any instrument, you use the unique properties of the piano to orient yourself. This property is that your fifth finger of your right hand (thumb of left) tells you visually and tactilely where the next chord of the next key is. You end up building a tactile and visual map that allows you to move around with ease to whatever key signature you want.

The ensuing exercise is one that I now use as a warm-up: You go up and down the keyboard in the manner described above, playing the I chords. However, there is a next step in which you play the root and inversions of the I chords so that you end up having all three configurations. This is a common pattern that pianists use and which is inherent in music. So when you play CEG, you also play the inversions, going CEG EGC GCE and back down if you wish, doing the same for the keys of G etc.

STEP TWO
Having oriented yourself along the keyboard with the chords you can fill in the holes for the scale itself. This is where Betty's description in the other thread comes in. It is also why in that post she mentions with what finger you find the fifth note. The preceding exercise tells us the significance of that fifth note. At this point the emphasis has shifted to the tetrachord, and we are no longer interested in the five fingers. that was yesterday's emphasis. When we play a scale, we use four fingers, shift via the thumb and play four more notes. The scale when played on the piano comes in groupings of four, or tetrachords. I notice that in Betty's description yesterday, those two tetrachords are initially covered by two separate hands placed side by side. You end up very clearly perceiving that division and the patterns within each tetrachrod.

What I see in all of this is an orientation that is not primarily intellectual. You get the patterns of scales, chords, key signatures, into your hands and what I call the body-mind, where body and mind talk to each other. It's the same thing that happens when you are playing chords and runs on the guitar (I played classical guitar).

OTHER
I ran into a similar approach, but without the circle of fifths, around the same time that I was learning the preceding chord exercise. I wanted to understand the chord symbols used by the jazz crowd and they brought me to a site where a similar exercise is used. The difference is that the order of keys goes by patterns of black and white keys. All key signatures that have, for example, black white black, are learned as one grouping. They also move about in root and first and second inversion, and create a routine of covering all the keys. Personally I stayed with the circle of fifths, but I adopted the idea of being aware of the black-white-black groupings.

http://psrtutorial.com/Resources/R_ChordSecrets/r_chordsecrets.html

However, if you go far enough in that system, you are right back to the circle of fifths.

Principles

I picked up a few principles that I think answer the kind of questions you are asking, namely how to get oriented physically on the keyboard and think pianistically I suppose, rather than a guitarist trying to play the piano.

- The scale is divided into tetrachords, and we have five fingers. which also allows us to use groupings of four fingers.
- The fifth note of a scale brings us to the starting note of the next scale in the circle of fifths (for flats you descend).
- Physically, our five-finger hand spans up to that fifth note, so we have an instant orientation, especially when playing chords.
- Pianists are very aware of groupings of black and white keys. When you get more into it, you'll find that some of those groupings affect fingering choice since it's awkward to use the pinky on a black key. There are memorized fingerings, or one can get the general principle behind it.
- The hand can expand or contract to cover a different number of piano keys. Being aware of how many keys you intend to cover, and initially being aware of the five you keys you naturaly cover, will give you a sense of "place" so that you will play with ease and without hesitation. When you move to a new hand position, be aware of placing your whole hand, and that you are covering those five keys, and what that range is - not intellectually, just have a sense of it.

These are the things that helped me orient. I now do the circle of fifths chord as a daily exercise. Knowing that I, IV, V cover every single note of a scale I have also invented another exercise as a warm-up: I play each note of the scale and chord the suitable chord and its inversions, then play the next note and do the same. I'm hoping it will make some things automatic (it seems to).

#1129163 04/12/08 09:25 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 331
majones Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 331
Thanks again, I'll have to digest this.

More later.

Malcolm

#1129164 04/12/08 10:07 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 73
Z
Zom Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Z
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 73
You asked such a simple question and got a veritable book as a reply. The simple answer is---whatever method you find easiest for learning as many scales and chords as possible, the better. But once you are used to improvising in all these scales and chords---hopefully you won't be thinking in steps or notes at all, it'll become intuitive. Thinking consciously during improvisation, I've personally found, often impedes the flow of ideas.

#1129165 04/12/08 10:45 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,678
Well, that's where that little chord exercise was helpful. You move from place to place to place and it becomes automatic. It's good to have some place to start and a couple of beginning patterns. People over-think.

#1129166 04/16/08 12:58 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 340
W
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
W
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 340
I'm going to bypass the pedagogical debate, and address the original question.


I find plenty of Real World uses for scales other than the ones you mentioned, and it would be an imoverished world indeed that didn't have more than that.

Even if you don't directly use every mode every day, the study of them as a system helps to foster a deeper understanding of sound. I rarely use the major scale during improvisation, at least not directly.

It is useful to use Whole and Half steps as a starting point to remember scales. If you want to take yourself higher, here's what I'd suggest:

Sing the note names as you practice.

Sing the scale degree as you practice (this is more useful). For example, if you're practicing a major scale, you just sing : "one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, one, seven, six, five...etc". If you're singing a natural minor scale, it becomes "one, two, flat three, four, five, flat six, flat seven, one, etc"

There IS a physical geometry to the piano-- it's just not as repetitive and predictable as "moving the box" on the guitar fretboard.

#1129167 04/17/08 05:58 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 331
majones Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 331
Thanks for your post. I've been posing this question to several of my piano friends. As you might surmise I'm getting SEVERAL suggestions.

I'm taking everything in and still looking for what will be best for me.

As my improvising will be in C for some time now I'm relying on scale note memory. Pattens and steps, shapes, etc are not working --- like you said they do not work the same way as on the guitar. So I'm relying upon scale note memory and this seems to be right for me -- at this moment in time. Shaps and steps go up scale fine, but I get lost coming back down scale.

Still looking into modes -- love all those white keys in C. And chord intervals (1-3-5-6-b7) seem like a safe way....... I'm not finished yet...

Appreciate every one's help.

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  platuser 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
Piano World Has Been Sold!
--------------------
Forums RULES, Terms of Service & HELP
(updated 06/06/2022)
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
(ad)
(ad)
New Topics - Multiple Forums
How Much to Sell For?
by TexasMom1 - 04/15/24 10:23 PM
Song lyrics have become simpler and more repetitive
by FrankCox - 04/15/24 07:42 PM
New bass strings sound tubby
by Emery Wang - 04/15/24 06:54 PM
Pianodisc PDS-128+ calibration
by Dalem01 - 04/15/24 04:50 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics223,384
Posts3,349,179
Members111,631
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010

Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations |

Advertise on Piano World
| Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map


Copyright © VerticalScope Inc. All Rights Reserved.
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community.