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Ori,

Rather than antagonize BDB, I think you should make an effort to befriend him. Then, you can sell him the perfect 100 year old soundboards you remove from pianos you are rebuilding. I am sure if you are careful, the slight damage done in removal, and taking off the bridges wont be of any concern to him.

Ori,

I have no desire to browbeat BDB on this issue. There is no need to "translate" my comments. He and I have had these discussions in a respectful manner in the past and I think we understand each other's position and are willing to listen to new info when it comes in.

Also I am not 100% positive that all the modern explanations about how and why tone deteriorates in soundboards are completely correct. I am 80% convinced maybe. I think there is room for discussion at least.

I can certainly support BDB on the fact that there are some pretty old soundboards here in CA that still sound great- and neither of us is in a climate anything at all like the Kalahari desert. We are both in regions with a heavy marine air influence. In mine, it runs on the high side (usually 50-80% RH) . In his, just about right I think. And I have witnessed other rebuilt pianos that at first got tagged as having bad old boards, but once they got really tweaked out nicely, the "bad board tone" somehow disappeared.

So while I am certain that some boards do need to be replaced, I am a lot less sure of the arguments that they all should be replaced.

Regards,

Rick Clark

Actually, if anyone might have bothered to check the times of the posts, you might have noticed that Del posted his response while I was writing mine. It doesn't matter. I've read his stuff before. I know what compression set is, and I know that the only way it figures into soundboard construction is that the soundboard is glued crosswise to the ribs. That's entirely independent of how the soundboard is formed. Whether you form the crown in a soundboard by compression-crowning or by shaping, or any other method, if you take two otherwise identical soundboards and dry them to the moisture content used to form the crown by compression, they will both go pretty much flat. All the forces balance out. If you take off the ribs, they pretty much will go back to their original shape, except for the problems caused by being glued crossgrain to the ribs. That's because there hasn't been any compression set caused by the construction method.

That's only one of the questionable assertions made here by Del. For those of you that choose not to question them, that's fine. It doesn't make any difference to most people. There are only a few people who really understands what he says, fewer for whom it would make any difference, and I am probably the only one who follows what he says with a critical eye. I learn a lot from his writings, although they may not be what he wants me to learn. Del, I hope you understand that this is my sincerest compliment to you and the work you have done!

Ori, if you can't understand that the sixth octave is around the fifth octave, if you don't understand what measurable, repeatable, objective means, if you don't know how to spell "deaf," I'm afraid I can't help you.

Keith, if I were into making pianos, I would be happy to take old soundboards and recycle them into new pianos. After all, old instrument makers did such things for centuries. I, like Ori, am not into such things, I'm afraid. I wish Del would be a bit more forceful in taking the leap. But as I said at the outset, I recognize that there is a cost to recycling old materials, even old pianos, and doing too much doesn't make economic sense.

Kith, you’re sooo right!!
You are a much better businessman than I am.
Why didn’t I think about it…

But you know, when I remove the old, dead soundboards, even if they are damaged, he could easily fix them with his ” skills, knowledge and craftsmanship”… and his magic wand.


BDB.
The 6th octave is around the 5th as much as the 4th.
So why be over smart and not just say the 6th?

Thank you for correcting my spelling, English is not my first language.
If you just noticed it now I'll take it as a compliment.
Now if you can't do better than pointing out my typing errors in a discussion about pianos, than I really can't help you.

Rick,
If you read my posts I think it's clear that I believe too that RH plays a role in the preservation of the piano and the soundboard.
I never said ALL boards need to be replaced, I said I almost never see in my area a board that can and should be saved.

I also know what happens to pianos that are moved from an area of the country where they were kept in a relatively good shape, to this area, and it's not good.


I faced many times families that thought they're getting the piano that was in their family for 90 years lovingly restored just to be disappointed.
Del said in his post he was there too.
Keith posted in the past he was there too.
Irving was there...Many good rebuilders had to face that family.

And it's not a pleasant experience.
What should I tell them?

It's not the "patch up" job that bothers me...It's the romantic storys about the special woods, the authentic soundboard and the false hopes they give their clients.

It's when the "rebuilders" say there's never a reason to replace what they're not equipped to replace.
It's when they try to tell their clients..."it's just as good or better" than replacing what they can't replace.

It's when those peoples hopes crash.
People want to believe that a 12K rebuilding job on a 100 years old piano is a good thing...but we know better.
it's not just the boards...It's keeping action parts that should be replaced.
It's restringing with over sized #6 pins or doping the block.
Or replacing the pinblock in a way that...well, I'm sure you know...

Reading on this forum it seems that piano dealers and rebuilders as a whole enjoy a reputation not much better then used car salesman. Why???
I was always proud of what I do. And always happy to recommend my customers to do the right thing (at least as I see it) even if it means that I "loose" them.

When people are "taken"...in the end it comes back to us dealers, as a whole.

Anyone want to venture a "guesstimate" as to how long - *how many years* - it might take for compression to deaden a soundboard? Are we most likely talking 5-10 years? 10-20 years? 30-40 years or more?

I'm still not sold on dampchasers. Still worry about them cracking the soundboard, etc. Humidity levels are running between 35% - 45% right now with a room humidifier which I think is reasonably good for a piano. It's the summer I'm concerned about. Haven't checked into dehumidifiers yet, and wonder if we'll really be able to control humidity without a LOT of noise in the room, so I'm wondering ....

If the better choice is to take a chance and get a DC, which some feel can actually crack a soundboard. Which is better (worse?):

*A cracked soundboard - how likely are the ribs to remain intact and for how many years? vs

*Higher humidity levels which will eventually compress and "deaden" a soundboard. Again how many years does this likely take?

If the consensus is it may take 30-40 years or more for the soundboard to "die" due to "compression" from high humidity, well, then, that's a good long time. If the ribs generally detach from a cracked soundboard in just a few years, well, these ae factors it is helpful to know when deciding which route to take to protect one's piano.

There are lots of variables to consider, I guess. I'm asking these questions from New England. We experience high humidity only during a 4-6 weeks maybe during the summer. Much different that the Pacific Northwest region where you are Del. I also wonder if the estimate may differ from one type of piano to another due to differing methods or quality of piano construction?

One last question, when rebuilders replace soundboards, do they usually rebuild to the same specs as the original soundboard? Is a piano that originally had a compression-crowned soundboard usually rebuilt the same way?

I know this is a lot of questions. I realize there are no cut and dried answers, either. Maybe just some guestimates on the time frame thing??

Just a note - I hope not to hear more testimony for DC's - I've read all of them, but I'm still hesitant.

Jeanne W

P.S. Steinway has a compression-crowned soundboard then, right?

I think it's worth mentioning that the main cause of soundboard failure is the widespread practice of compression crowning rather than rib crowning. If manufacturers rib crowned, maybe old soundboards, like old violins, would get better and better with age.

Del...yo said "if" a soundboard is compression crowned. Is there another way that it is done in pianos, and who might do it that way? (note...non-technician here, trying to duck the bullets).

Jeanne W, did your piano get a new soundboard?

My soundboard is exactly 90 years old. It still sounds sweet and resonant. It certainly is not dead to my ears.

The other way is to shape the ribs so they have the right amount of curvature, and with the % moisture in the ribs and soundboard the same, glue the soundboard to the ribs. Before the strings are installed, there is no compression on the board, unlike a compression-crowned board, which starts out with a very large compression stress. Even considering the downbearing force from the strings, a rib-crowned board has much lower compressive stress on it.

True, compression-set as such is not caused by the soundboard’s construction method. Compression-set occurs as wood fibers are held in compression over some period of time. Constructing a compression-crowned soundboard assembly only results in a structure and process that creates the requisite perpendicular-to-grain compression within the soundboard panel. The missing element is time. Internal fiber compression is inherent and necessary to this crowning process and the compression set that develops over time is a natural and inevitable result. But this is just semantics.

In this type of soundboard construction without some amount of internal perpendicular-to-grain compression there will be no soundboard crown. There is no other mechanism that will either form or maintain crown. I suppose one could argue that soundboard crown itself is not necessary but most of us are of the opinion that it, along with the corresponding string bearing, does contribute to the overall tonal performance of the piano.

Your hypothetical example of two otherwise identical soundboards is misleading. Only the compression-crowned soundboard assembly is formed by drying the soundboard panel to 3.8% to 4.0% moisture content. A soundboard assembly using crowned ribs would be glued up much closer to the moisture content it will experience in real life. In our shop this is between 6.5% and 7.0%. Other factories use similar moisture content controls. In our region wood typically maintains an equilibrium moisture content of around 8% to 10% throughout the year. This means that a rib-crowned soundboard assembly will typically be under some small amount of compression year-round. By comparison the soundboard panel in a compression-crowned soundboard assembly will have a considerably higher measure of compression. At least initially, before compression-set begins to take its toll. Over time this initial measure of compression will decrease through the process of compression-set and along with it will go some amount of soundboard crown. Over enough time and given the right conditions, most or all of the original crown simply disappears.

(For those interested there are charts available that make it possible to calculate just how much initial compression will be involved in each case. There are too many variables involved to reasonably predict the rate at which compression-set will affect the soundboard assembly.)

Drying a rib-crowned soundboard assembly to a moisture content of 4.0% will create some perpendicular-to-grain tension but it will still have crown. Slightly less than it was designed to have, perhaps, but it will still have crown. Drying a compression-crowned soundboard assembly to a moisture content of 4.0% will remove all compression and the assembly will have no crown whatsoever. Indeed, if the compression-crowned soundboard assembly has been in existence long enough for some amount of compression-set to develop, at 4.0% mc this panel may well be under some amount of tension. Compression-set causes the wood fibers to physically and permanently change shape.

No, these systems are not at all otherwise identical. If you take the ribs off of these two examples the ribs from the compression-crowned soundboard assembly will return to their flat configuration while the ribs from the rib-crowned soundboard assembly will still have their curved face, or crown. The soundboard panels themselves are so floppy (across-grain) as to be of no consequence in this discussion.

The only way a compression-crowned soundboard assembly can form and maintain crown is through perpendicular-to-grain compression. That’s it. That is the whole point of the process and there are no other forces at work; take away that compression — as happens naturally over time through the mechanism of compression-set — and that crown goes away. Whether we like it or not this is the process that takes place over time. This is not just some wild theory I dreamed up out of the ether, it can be (and has been) demonstrated through a variety of experiments and tests both myself and many others. It’s gone well beyond speculation, it’s verified fact.

Del

There are too many variables involved to accurately predict the rate of, or the effects of, compression-set. These range from the characteristics of the actual wood samples (specifically the resiliency of the earlywood portion of the growth ring) to the extremes of humidity in the micro-climate surrounding the piano. How high does the relative humidity go? And for how much of the year?

Like most technicians I’ve evaluated pianos upwards of a hundred years old with soundboards that still exhibited good tonal character. I’ve also evaluated pianos still on the showroom floor that were already exhibiting the percussive attach and rapid sustain drop-off characteristic of compression damaged soundboards. Since these pianos were mostly prepped by technicians I consider to be exceptionally good at their work I expect they (the pianos in question) were performing about as well as possible with their given soundboards.

Most of the pianos coming to our shop for soundboard replacement are upwards of 40 years old. There have been a few that were less than 10 years old, but they are the exceptions.

Personally, I’d suggest you reconsider that position on Dampp-Chasers. Properly sized to the piano and properly installed they are quite effective at keeping the moisture content of the soundboard panel down during periods of high humidity. Even if you don’t wish to install the whole system complete with water buckets (and I usually don’t), if my piano lived in your neck of the woods it would have a D-C bar or three down under the soundboard (along with the humidistat control, of course). Ask your technician.

Del

Part II.

The issue is not whether or not the ribs will detach themselves from the soundboard panel. With modern adhesives this is rarely a concern. The issue is how rapidly compression-set will develop and how long it will take for this to have an effect on you piano’s performance. And, of course, how much of an effect it may have.

Yes, your climate is much different than ours. Checking the charts that illustrate these things you will notice that the moisture content of wood products within the average home in the Pacific Northwest stays pretty much between 8% and 10% year round and we don’t experience the high humidity peaks you mention. Our climate takes pretty good care of the wood products we use in our homes — better than in most other parts of the country. (And this despite the fact that it rains pretty much every day and it’s always wet and miserable and nobody should ever think about moving out here!)

As to your last question — it depends on the rebuilder. Some do use a relatively authentic compression-crowning system (as is described elsewhere). We do not. Our ribs are crowned and the soundboard panel is held to a somewhat higher moisture content when it is all glued up. We believe our system has certain acoustical advantages and fewer inherent structural drawbacks. Obviously, others disagree. It is a matter of choice, experience and technological background.

Del

JeanneW,

The reputation of D.C.s causing damage to boards is from three things:

1. Heater bars installed *without* the humidistat in an environment that already goes dry seasonally. This is not supposed to be done, but many have done it and probably still do. it comes from a mixed mentality of cheapness and technical ignorance.

2. People observing boards that have both cracks and Dampp-Chasers and jumping to the conclusion that the D.C.s *caused* the cracks, when in fact the cracks existed before the D.C. was ever installed. In fact, the cracks are what prompted the owner to finally do something about climate control.

3. Technicians who are unable or unwilling to change their ways or adapt to new facts. Not unusual in this business.

A properly installed system *can't* cause cracks because the humidistat shuts off the dehumidifier when the proper humidity level is reached.

Regards,

Rick Clark

Ori,

Certainly in your neck of the woods a good argument can be made for replacing boards a large % of the time, even if we set aside these issues about tone/compression set, etc. The deteriorated joints alone (old glue gone bad etc) make an argument for it. I mean a rebuilder friend of mine says he can literally kick an old NYC soundboard out of a piano,that's how weak things get. And I have certainly seen many rebuild jobs with the old boards left in where odd problems and sounds developed that seemed to strongly suggest failed joints and/or crystallized glue.

These pianos have problems that require complete tear down, removal of the board, new rib glueing, new bridge caps, etc. At that point the difference between regluing and reusing the old board versus putting in a new one is relatively small and it makes good sense to go ahead and get new wood in there- better safe than sorry.

Regards,

Rick Clark

Irving wrote:
"I have saved many hundreds of soundboards and replaced thousands"

Bumping for emphasis. One should always be aware of the perspective of the technician who is offering advise. Know they've done both, at least a handful of times.

I know this thread has seemingly been a repeat and would only attempt, in siding with the replacement camp, to add one more voice that isn't making money doing it and who says go for it. A dead soundboard is a dead soundboard, is a dead...and you may not figure it out without anything fresh near by.

Welcome to the forum, Ori. Irving, Rick et al. must be getting pretty tired of this chapter and verse . "12k rebuild"? May not be a lot for a refinish, action rebuild, and a new soundboard, but I think its not far off for any two out of those three.

Chris

Chris,

This may be the most illuminating post of the entire thread. Many techs think they are doing great work repairing old boards, until they begin to install new boards. If they master soundboard replacement, it becomes obvious how much better the new boards work, and they often feel embarrassed by their stubborn adherance to saving old boards no matter what.
With that being said, we recently rebuilt a 100 year old Bechstein on which we saved the original board, and this piano sounded wonderful in all registers. This is the exception, and perhaps it would have sounded even better with a new board.

Yes, it does have a new soundboard installed. I wouldn't have bought an early 1900's piano without a new soundboard (and complete rebuild).

Jeanne W

Question:

Assuming crown is retained over time, why would newer wood vibrate better i.e. with more sound and sustain than older drier wood?

Seems to me the reverse would be true... i.e. stiffer drier wood would seem to vibrate stronger.