Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

What's Hot!!
Welcome PianoTV members!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Fall 2017
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


Who's Online Now
121 registered members (accordeur, Albert Brighten, ando, Almaviva, anamnesis, 26 invisible), 1,391 guests, and 2 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#1125730 - 07/31/04 04:57 PM Full perimeter plate  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,926
pianoloverus Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,926
New York City
I knew that the Mason BB has a full perimeter plate and I just learned that the model A has switched(when I'm not sure) to one also. I am guessing that the soon to unveiled AA will have one too. What are the advantages/disadvantages of a full perimeter plate? Are there other makes that have full perimeter plates?

Piano & Music Accessories
#1125731 - 07/31/04 05:09 PM Re: Full perimeter plate  
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,816
Keith D Kerman Online content
3000 Post Club Member
Keith D Kerman  Online Content
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,816
Gaithersburg, MD (Washington D...
My understanding is the more mass in the plate, the more inert it will be, and the less it will be involved with the sound. Supposedly, this will help the energy to stay in the soundboard, improving the sustain. I think it is a similar idea to using a 300 lb piece of granite as a speaker stand. The only disadvantage I can think of, is the dirty looks you get from piano movers when you tell them the piano to be moved is a Mason & Hamlin.
The AA does have a full perimeter plate. I am sure some here will say it is overkill, or unnecesary.


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
www.pianocraft.net
check out www.sitkadoc.com
www.twitter.com/pianocraft https://www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460
#1125732 - 07/31/04 05:12 PM Re: Full perimeter plate  
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,290
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Derick  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,290
New York
How big is the AA?

Derick


Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.
#1125733 - 07/31/04 05:26 PM Re: Full perimeter plate  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,192
RKVS1 Offline
3000 Post Club Member
RKVS1  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,192
Topeka, Kansas
I think these numbers are close Derick.
A: 5'8"
AA: 6'4"
BB: 7'0
CC: 9'2" or 10'6" in white (I'n not sure on the CC, TTTT )

#1125734 - 07/31/04 05:41 PM Re: Full perimeter plate  
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,851
Stevester Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Stevester  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,851
New Jersey
The new AA has already started shipping.


"The true character of a man can be determined by witnessing what he does when no one is watching".

anon
#1125735 - 07/31/04 05:59 PM Re: Full perimeter plate  
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,290
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Derick  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,290
New York
I don't think anyone will be able to move the CC with a full perimeter plate.

Derick


Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.
#1125736 - 07/31/04 06:13 PM Re: Full perimeter plate  
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,290
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Derick  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,290
New York
the dreaded double post...


Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.
#1125737 - 07/31/04 06:31 PM Re: Full perimeter plate  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,051
kenny Offline
7000 Post Club Member
kenny  Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,051
Most tier one pianos do not have a full perimeter plate.
Sure, the full-perimiter plates have lots of sound holes in them, but is less sound getting out of the top of the piano because all that iron is in the way?

Actually *I* don't need any more sound to get out of the top of my BB into my living room, but what about in a concert venue. . . ???

#1125738 - 07/31/04 06:48 PM Re: Full perimeter plate  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,825
Rich Galassini Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Rich Galassini  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,825
Philadelphia/South Jersey
Kenny,

If anything, the sound of the full perimeter plate Masons has a bigger sound, IMHO.

Just a thought - the sound comes out of the top and the bottom at the same time.


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
(215) 991-0834 direct line
rich@cunninghampiano.com
Check out the Science Channel's "How Its Made" featuring our piano restoration:
http://www.cunninghampiano.com/how-its-made/
#1125739 - 07/31/04 07:11 PM Re: Full perimeter plate  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 2,943
Penny Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Penny  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 2,943
San Juan Capistrano, CA
As anyone who has ever sat under a piano while it's being played knows! wink Piano pile-up anyone?

penny

#1125740 - 07/31/04 07:54 PM Re: Full perimeter plate  
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 3,269
ChickGrand Offline
3000 Post Club Member
ChickGrand  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 3,269
Midwest U.S.
Quote
Originally posted by Derick:
I don't think anyone will be able to move the CC with a full perimeter plate.
Theres a good picture of the original M&H CC plate at:

http://www.pianomuseum.org/pages/masonhamlin.html

#1125741 - 07/31/04 08:11 PM Re: Full perimeter plate  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,770
curry Offline
3000 Post Club Member
curry  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,770
Hamilton Twp, NJ
Chickgrand, thanks for the link.


G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358
#1125742 - 07/31/04 09:46 PM Re: Full perimeter plate  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,615
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,615
Oakland
I've seen a CC with a full perimeter plate, made near the end of production. I've seen a Bösendorfer 170 with one, and a later one without.


Semipro Tech
#1125743 - 07/31/04 10:07 PM Re: Full perimeter plate  
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 3,269
ChickGrand Offline
3000 Post Club Member
ChickGrand  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 3,269
Midwest U.S.
Quote
Originally posted by BDB:
I've seen a CC with a full perimeter plate, made near the end of production...
I have also. Best I can recall, it had a section along the straight side with four large port holes like are seen on the curved side of the CC shown in the link. That website reports the tail of the CC as over 40 inches. By my calculations, it's right at 48 at the back of the tail before the last curves to the back, inner measure and right at 50 outer. Massive.

#1125744 - 08/01/04 06:53 AM Re: Full perimeter plate  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,926
pianoloverus Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,926
New York City
Any techs, dealers, rebuilders have anything to add to Keith Kerman's reply to my original question?

#1125745 - 08/01/04 07:42 AM Re: Full perimeter plate  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 411
jazpianizt Offline
Full Member
jazpianizt  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 411
Quote
Theres a good picture of the original M&H CC plate at:

http://www.pianomuseum.org/pages/masonhamlin.html
Wow! Out of curiousity, how does one use two lid props? Is there enough flex in the lid for one person to do it, or does it take two people?

#1125746 - 08/02/04 01:24 PM Re: Full perimeter plate  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,926
pianoloverus Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,926
New York City
Still looking for more answers. Only one reply to the original question thusfar! frown confused

#1125747 - 08/05/04 06:15 PM Re: Full perimeter plate  
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,851
Stevester Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Stevester  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,851
New Jersey
Yes, it would be nice to get a little more feedback regarding this question.


"The true character of a man can be determined by witnessing what he does when no one is watching".

anon
#1125748 - 08/05/04 08:34 PM Re: Full perimeter plate  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,615
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,615
Oakland
Full perimeter plates are usually heavier. Merits are debatable, and are probably low on the scale of things. I prefer the Bösendorfer with the full perimeter plate, but I couldn't ascribe the difference in the two pianos to that.


Semipro Tech
#1125749 - 08/06/04 07:22 AM Re: Full perimeter plate  
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,531
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Del  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,531
Olympia, Washington
Quote
Originally posted by pianoloverus:
I knew that the Mason BB has a full perimeter plate and I just learned that the model A has switched(when I'm not sure) to one also. I am guessing that the soon to unveiled AA will have one too. What are the advantages/disadvantages of a full perimeter plate? Are there other makes that have full perimeter plates?
The full parameter plate became moderately popular a century or so back. The pianos that continue to use them were pretty much all designed back in the late 1800s or very early 1900s. (The exceptions, of course, are pianos like the new M&H AA. But then, it is designed to look and feel like it had been designed back in the late 1800s or very early 1900s, deliberately recreating a bygone era.)

The benefits to this design are mostly theoretical: the more massive plate casting is supposed to draw less vibrating energy from the strings and it is supposed to stiffen the rim assembly. The first claim is dubious at best. Compared to other metals, gray iron has excellent vibration damping characteristics. That is, it readily absorbs and dissipates (as heat) vibrating energy. I don’t see how adding more iron well away from the active, structural area of the plate is going to alter this. The second represents overkill in the extreme. The well-made grand rim, especially a rim such as that used in the M&H, is already a stiff and massive structure. It is relatively easy to build an acoustically rigid rim assembly. Simply make it out of a suitably dense and stiff material and brace it adequately. Adding a few bolts to couple a full-parameter plate to the rim is not going to appreciably alter its acoustical characteristics. I know of no tests that show any acoustical benefit for the full-parameter plate design.

Having said all this, the only drawbacks to the design that I am aware of are their cost — obviously, more iron is used and they are a bit more difficult to cast and fit to the rim — and their weight. Pianos are difficult enough to move as it is.

Del


Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon
#1125750 - 08/06/04 12:08 PM Re: Full perimeter plate  
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 518
Eric F Offline
500 Post Club Member
Eric F  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 518
La Quinta, CA
It sounds like the 'full perimeter plate' is more of a selling point then a buying point.


Eric Frankson
"Music comes first from my heart, and then goes upstairs to my head where I check it out." - Roberta Flack
#1125751 - 08/06/04 09:59 PM Re: Full perimeter plate  
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 24
John Tudor Offline
Full Member
John Tudor  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 24
Los Angeles, Pasadena, Califor...
This is my first posting to PW and it couldn't have come at a better time. With regards to the tonal and/or any other effects of a full perimeter plate, I recently purchased a Mason & Hamlin "CC-1", and have started restoring the piano.

The piano is 9'4" but has a second, triangle-shaped, iron plate starting just behind the bass dampers. As other members have posted, I also believe the plate should act as a damper between the hitch pins and the soundboard, however, the purpose for this second plate is the opposite. Apparently, the designers at Mason & Hamlin used this second plate to change the piano's overall tone and volume characteristics.

The second plate is still made of the same metal and the piano was built with a tension-resonator.

This is the first piano I had ever seen with two plates and when I saw the original question posted regarding Mason & Hamlins' full perimeter plates, I wondered if anyone knew more about this model of piano?

Thanks for any help.

John


Pianos Wholesale, Tudor & Co.
(626)442-1150
Complete In-house Rebuilder.
New August Forster & Bohemia Pianos, also personally rebuilt instruments of high quality.
#1125752 - 08/07/04 04:11 AM Re: Full perimeter plate  
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 3,269
ChickGrand Offline
3000 Post Club Member
ChickGrand  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 3,269
Midwest U.S.
Welcome aboard, John. I'd particularly love to see pictures of before, during and after on this restoration. The CC is one of the greats. thumb

#1125753 - 08/03/06 07:50 AM Re: Full perimeter plate  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 110
Ron Overs Offline
Full Member
Ron Overs  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 110
Sydney Australia
Hi Del and all,

I've been giving more thought to the idea of heavy plates also, and their implications to overall energy loss. The earlier Bösendorfer 6'2" was a piano that also had a full perimeter plate after the style of the Masons.

Thanks for the link to the early CC Chickgrand. The current CC is a significantly better layout than the old model. That earlier CC rim looks like it would make a perfect rim shape for a new Boston concert grand, its got all the hallmarks of the Boston wide bodied back end, and you'd need a packed lunch to take the trip from the rim to the high end of the bass bridge. I'll bet that crossover was a shocker, as a consequence of the widely differing distance of the crossover bridge-ends from the rim. When I visited Mason and Hamlin after Rochester I saw the new AA. These pianos stylistically might look like their earlier pianos but they also have incorporated some very good contemporary thinking. Gone is the hockey stick treble bridge and the cross over is moved up to D30 from memory. The nice new log style treble scale is a welcome addition to the instrument. This piano is a big scaling improvement over the opposition in that size of instrument - Walter accepted.

During the mid 70's, there was a full-perimeter-plate 6'2" Böse in a Sydney studio called United Sound (before they built the Sydney Entertainment Centre, which was preceded by the demolition of the United Sound building). It was quite a nice instrument in spite of its B27 break. For those of you who might remember the Dudley Moore Trio LP, Song for Suzy, that LP was recorded on the above mentioned 6'2" in Sydney. The LP was quite a good recording with the exception of an annoying flutter which persisted throughout the entire album. Clearly one of their tape machines, for the production process, wasn't exactly in good shape.

Back to plate weights. Ever since I rebuilt an SD-10 Baldwin back in 1988, the plate issue has been hovering around in my head as a possible factor which might aid sustain in a piano.

Something I've been doing, as an anecdotal experiment in recent times, is to place a hand lightly on the plate while striking a thick chord with the other hand. I've found that pianos such as Yamaha, Steinway and the RX Kawai, with their very lightly built plates, tend to be noticeably more active in the plate than heavier plated pianos such as the SD-10 and our own 225 piano. Bösendorfers also have a slightly heavier plate which tends to be a little more inert. Now while I understand what Del is saying about the hi-hysteresis characteristics of grey iron, I can't help thinking that, despite the lossy nature of the metal, a higher mass, higher web thickness plate should lose less energy if it is vibrating a lot less than a relative light flimsy plate. Another piano which would seem to lend support to this idea is the Welmar or Marshall and Rose grand (both made out of the UK Whelpdale Maxwell and Codd factory - now closed). These pianos had quite massive plates and a relatively light rims like a Bösendorfer, yet they were known for their good sustaining qualities. The Welmar plate-belt between the bass and treble bridges was around 1" thick.

Anyhow, its just one more idea thrown into the mix. The jury may be still out on this one but for me, the heavier plate giving better sustain is gaining cred' as I get older.

I realise that soundboard design, ie. mass/stiffness and radiating area will also influence sustain and impedance, but the plates do seem to be contributing to the overall result as well.

Ron O.


ARPT, Australasian Piano Tuners and Technicians Association.
Grand Piano manufacturers.
Sydney, Australia
web: http://overspianos.com.au
#1125754 - 08/18/06 04:02 PM Re: Full perimeter plate  
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 418
Calin Offline
Full Member
Calin  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 418
Bucharest
I saw an old (~1900) Boesendorfer with a full perimeter plate. A smaller piano, under 2 meters. The reason for the full perimeter plate seemd to be that it lacked any beams underneath. So probably they thought that the plate could stiffen the rim in the absence of beam support.


Calin

The Bechstein piano discussion group: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/bechstein/
The Schweighofer piano site: http://schweighofer.tripod.com

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
CLEARANCE SPECIALS!
Save Big In our online store now

In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
SummerKeys
Maine Coast Music Vacation for Adults
(ad)
Pearl River & Ritmuller
Ritmuller Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Looking for a keyboard for worship music
by Morodiene. 01/18/18 08:39 AM
Kawai announces KDP110 digital piano
by Kawai James. 01/18/18 05:50 AM
Kawai announces Concert Artist CA58 digital piano
by Kawai James. 01/18/18 05:24 AM
DEXIBELL VIVO SX7 PIANO/SOUND MODULE
by Marko in Boston. 01/18/18 04:50 AM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics183,845
Posts2,688,141
Members89,474
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2018 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0