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Wow! it doesn't have to be that complicated You can go with that approach if you find it enjoyable. I would just practice the first 2 measures or measure 9-10 say 30 times in a row. Start out slow and gradually build up the speed. When your weak fingers start binding together and the notes become uneven, that's your limit for now. Slow down a bit and check your tempo with the metronome. This is the speed limit that you will want to break 2-3 weeks later. Stop and shake your hand/arm out regularly so you don't injure yourself. If you ever think you progress too slow, think of this. When I practiced the Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody No 6, I spent a year to bring the tempo from 106 to 114 for the octave section. Just 8 bpm faster.
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There are many ways to speed up a piece. For instance, you could do clusters of notes (say, 4 16ths) and just play those 4 notes really fast, then pause, play the next 4 really fast, pause, etc. Also, practicing in dotted rhythms (long-short-long-short, and then the alternate short-long-short-long) also helps. Playing with the metronome at your regular tempo, then repeating while moving the tempo up pa few ticks at a time is also a great way to increase speed. All of these must be done over a period of days or even weeks to get to the tempo you want to. Another thing to keep in mind is that you have to think in the larger picture when playing fast. Listen to recordings so that you can start to understand how what you're playing at a slow tempo can evolve into what ti sounds like at full speed. Sometimes in passages you may need to change fingering at a faster tempo, but this would be indicated by an inability to keep the tempo going in a particular passage. If you find your arm getting tense at a faster speed then that can mean that either your technique needs work (which really only a teacher can help you through) or you are trying to play too fast too soon. Never play faster than you can think.
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Dear Morodiene,
Most of your suggestions make sense to me. For example, last week, with Fantasie Impromptu, I was doing, with my left hand, exactly same thing you described in your first paragraph above, except that I tried to do all in just three days. I ended up having muscle pain all over (and couldn't sleep well at night because of the excitement about the possibility of mastering this song...hahaha)
I can't agree more with you that listening to others' recordings is a really good way to learn. I try to listen to variety of players including someone who still needs a lot of practice. I can see what works and what doesn't.
I wanted to ask you though, what did you mean by "only a teacher can help" when your technique nees work? This might be really my case, and I can't tell if I'm the other case you mentioned "trying to play too fast too soon", because I actually tried to do it too fast. (I guess I can try to do it in a longer period of time and see what happens)
So, if it turns out that my technique needs work, what kind of technique would that be, and how a good teacher can help? Thing is that when I realized that I needed to change the fingerings to play faster, I can manage to do it for a short time but eventually my arms and fingers can't keep it up. Then I just stop trying and play something simple like Bach Inventions. The next day I try the fast part again and it works a bit better. I can see if I keep trying this I can make it to the end, but it could take a year to master this song even before I can get back to Revolutionary Etude.
While I am at it, I would like to know if the same thing below happens to others. What happens is that I keep doing this fast playing for a while and then lose interest on a particular song because it takes so long time. After months, I come back to the song and try. It is amazing how little I, or my fingers, remember. Though I think it takes shorter time(about a week or so) to get to the level where last time I stopped practicing. Is this normal, or is my memory getting really, really old...?
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CoffeeLover, The reason only a teacher can help is that they can hear and see what you are doing in person, and respond. Then you can try whatever it is they are telling you, and they can respond with more clarity if you're not doing what exactly they are looking for. Communication (two-way) is necessary in person, because a forum there is no immediate response and observation.
I can't really say if there is a technical issue at heart here, or if you're just not giving yourself enough time in slow practice before speeding up, or not being gradual enough. I can't see what you're doing to know which the issue is. A teacher who sees you regularly can usually figure that out pretty easily.
A word of warning: you experienced pain, and that never *EVER* should happen. Do not continue this!! If you ever have pain, stop playing right away! Find a tempo you can play it at without pain and keep it there.
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Morodiene,
Thank you. I will have a teacher one of these days to find out what kind of problems and bad habits I have. It's been about 2 years I started teaching myself seriously after a long break from piano, so I know there must be something a teacher can help. Wouldn't it be nice if we don't have to worry about money and have a teacher all the time? Yeh... that's what I will do when I am a millionare. Thanks again, your comments have been very helpful.
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Hi, I thought I'd give a little update and check how everybody's doing. I hurt my right shoulder last weekend and stupidly I haven't rested it during the week - result, no playing with my right hand for a little while, not such a bad thing for Op10 No12 practicing maybe?
Weakness and lack of control in LH fingers 3,4 and 5 means some areas are needing a lot of work. Measures 7 and 8 are slowly improving with a lot of dotted rhythm work. Measures 24-35 continue to be a major challenge, slow practice - slow improvement.
A question about the sections, measures 17, 57 and the longer similar section measures 73 and 74. I notice that with my natural hand position my LH 2nd finger doesn't hit the centre of the black keys but hits the front right edge with the finger angled slightly to the key. It seems to be reasonably controlled but is this good practice?
With respect to the temporarily out of commission RH I have more than a suspicion that when I get a chance to play on an acoustic I will be banging my RH on the raised lid. This is something I've noticed before, coming from my digital piano where there is less need to control the hand position into the keyboard.
One long term question about the study group. What sort of time frame are people feeling about their current and eventual progress? It would be lovely to imagine that one day I'll be able to make a recording good enough for everyone to hear. I have a suspicion though that there will only ever be sections that I'm reasonably happy with. What has happened at the end of other study groups?
Good luck to all
Chris
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It is natural for your finger to be at an angle to the black keys, if I understand your meaning. Your LH should point slightly towards the right as this is the natural positioning of the hand.
Why would your RH be banging on the raised lid? Are you referring to too much front to back movement of you arm, or too much vertical movement? If you are hitting the lid with vertical movement, then you may be sitting too close to the keys. Front to back movement has to do more with your technique in playing black keys. Sometimes people will reach forward to get the black keys and then come back for the white keys. If you have a passage where the black keys are involved, you can either play higher on the white keys to avoid the extraneous back & forth movement, or it could be an issue with your hand shape/wrist position. It's hard to describe online, but hopefully you get what I mean, or can answer some of my questions to clarify the issue.
This is the first study group I've been a part of, so I'm not sure what the outcome. I think for some who find this more challenging they will learn what they can from the piece, move on, and hopefully return to it a year later or so and get more out of it the 2nd time around. Good pieces are always worth revisiting. For me, my time frame is "whenever I can get to it." Which means whenever I'm not too exhausted from other things going on to jump in and work on it. For me, setting a deadline would only be setting myself up for failure, but perhaps after I get through March I'll have a better idea of what is realistic.
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Thanks for checking in, Chris. I am sorry you hurt your shoulder! I know it must be frustrating to try to rest it while doing things you must do day to day.
My progress has slowed a bit (see various threads on piano forum about searching for a grand piano--this decision could become a full-time job!), but I have the first two pages (out of five) memorized and am skipping on to the last page where the patterns are completely different. I think I need to get a head start there.
I'd love to hear a professional recording of this piece at about 112 tempo. I think I'll be lucky to get there with good control, but I have always heard it played so darn fast that I'm afraid it won't sound like the same piece. I'm wondering if I will need to use more pedal at a slower tempo than what I hear on recordings. The LH blends together nicely at the lightning speed I hear on YouTube, but I'm not sure it will have the same effect when played more slowly.
Here's my experience with study groups of various difficulties. Everyone starts, then the participants spread out at their own pace. People check in with questions from time to time, and when they do, others notice the thread and decide to join in. We started the Rachmaninoff C# minor Prelude study group on January 1 (I think 2007), and I played it for my teacher's Christmas recital that year. Jazzyprof finished before I did, and someone finished before him. Croatian Rhapsody is a study group that gets resurrected pretty regularly--it's a popular piece on the ABF--and some people start and stop with it as their skills progress.
Morodiene, I definitely wouldn't set a deadline. I have a goal for myself of playing this at Christmastime, but if I don't sound good, I will put it aside and bring it back later. I am working on a Mozart Sonata now that I played a few years ago, and I am amazed at how much more control I have with it now. It may be that I have to give this Etude a sabbatical for a few months, come back to it, and even repeat that process a couple of times before it really becomes comfortable.
Nancy
Estonia 168
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Nancy, Yes, I've done that many times with pieces. Often I'll get to them before I'm ready, but I keep revisiting them every year or so and they get better. Which Mozart Sonata are you working on? There never seems to be enough time in the day to learn all the pieces that I want to learn! I've had to limit myself otherwise I get carried away and spread myself too thin, not really learning any piece very well. Of course, having a teacher helps with that!
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I have not been doing the dedicated work necessary to polish the Revolutionary and bring it up to speed. That's mostly because I've also been learning the Brahms Intermezzo op.118 #2. Last night I finally finished memorizing that piece so now I'll try to spend a bit more time on the Revolutionary since it will be much harder to bring that up to speed. I'm on my spring break now so I get to put in more hours of practice!
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP
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I am working on the Mozart K332, 1st movement. When I started taking lessons again eight years ago, my motivation was to earn a little plaque from the Guild for playing Sonatas (five complete 3 movement sonatas from memory for the judge, plus scales and chords). I had always wanted that; I have no idea why! It must have been Beethoven's image on the front. Anyway, I had worked on the 1st movement a little in high school, so I decided to include this sonata in my program since I was familiar with it. Well, the 3rd movement is a real bear and took me forever. It would have been easier to choose another sonata entirely! I really love this one, though, so it feels good to be picking it up again.
Jazzyprof--Spring break? It's February! Whoever makes the schedule for you all must have a secret desire to take a ski vacation!
Nancy
Estonia 168
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Originally posted by NancyM333: Jazzyprof--Spring break? It's February! Whoever makes the schedule for you all must have a secret desire to take a ski vacation!
Indeed calling it "Spring Break" is cruel irony, considering the fact that much of the place currently looks like the frozen tundra. But I guess it gives our students an opportunity to hit the beaches of Cancun and Florida ahead of the March stampede.
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP
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Nancy, Oh, I love K332! After you get the 1st movement figured out though, you *must* look at the 2nd movement. It is simply gorgeous.
Anyway, my progress on the etude comes and goes. The reading is not an issue for me and so it's not difficult to go through at a slow pace. However, I've now started to do some focused work on measures that I know are going to prevent me from playing it faster. M. 15-18 (although really the issue is in m.15-16) and m. 25-28 are the ones I've decided to work on now. Of course, m. 29-36 will be the next big chunk, but I am taking these things in small bites.
I don't' know if this will help anyone with their progress, but this is the routine I'm going through with the above sections: -Play entire section hands together slowly. - Go back, play the LH alone (as this is the more difficult of the two) -Make sure I have good fingering and make any adjustments necessary. -play LH with swinging 16ths (long-short, then short-long), incorporate RH into swinging rhythms -Add RH slowly while playing LH evenly
Here is what I need to do next: -Play LH in groups of 3 notes very quickly (in succession), then 4, then 5
I may have to repeat the above steps until I can play at a moderately slow tempo with ease, no mistakes or pauses. If there are mistakes or places where I'm not ready to go on, then that tells me it needs more work.
What do you all do specifically to work on those passages that give your trouble?
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Hi fellow revolutionaries. I've still got some pain in my right shoulder so I've been continuing to practice left hand only, I think it's having a beneficial effect on Op10 No12, we'll see. In the mean time I couldn't help having a good listen to the Godowsky etude adapted from the Revolutionary Etude, for the left hand. For anybody who isn't familiar with the piece here are some links Francesco Libetta Berezovsky 10/12 plus Godowsly version The first link is great to see close up the technique required. I'm not particularly fond of Berezovsky's 10/12 in the second link but his Godowsky version is pretty amazing. I bought the sheet music on Friday and spent some of this weekend looking and playing very slowly the first 2 pages. I'm finding it fascinating. The way the arpeggios, chords and intervals combine to produce the melodic and rhythmic lines of the original is stunning. I can't ever imagine getting to a respectable tempo but even played slowly I think this is a wonderful study and will really help my technique, as long as I don't over stretch. I think I will add this to the group of pieces I'm currently practicing, I'm sure it will run very nicely in parallel with trying to "master" the original. cheers Chris
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Wow, Chris, this is amazing! Just the left hand? I will not look at the original the same way again. Wasn't the left hand difficult enough without adding the melody to it? That's really something. Thanks for posting it--I had never heard of it.
Here's my update. I have gotten the first 1.5 pages pretty steady, but then it goes into the arpeggios and I slow down. I am continuing to work on the memory of it, since I'm sure that will be a requirement before I move the speed up. I'm trying to work on a couple of other things at the same time for some variety--the Mozart K332 1st movement and a very interesting George Shearing arrangement of Somewhere Over the Rainbow. I have learned a lot from working on that piece, and it's a nice change of tempo from the Revolutionary Etude!
Of course, my big news is that I have a new Estonia piano, making all my practice much more fun. The feel, especially on the Etude, is totally different than my Yamaha. Shopping for the piano took up a lot of time, but I'm making it up by being tempted to extra practice every time I pass the room where it is.
Nancy
Estonia 168
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Nancy, great news about your new piano - I had a look at the Estonia website - I am so jealous. An acoustic piano lies someway into the distant future for me. Really good to hear that it encourages more practice.
Chris
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Isn't it so inspiring to have a new instrument? And one that responds well to what you want. When you're playing at this level of proficiency it is so important to have a good piano! Something is better than nothing, but it really makes it so much more enjoyable and even easier to learn pieces. Was it a Yamaha Clavinova you were playing on before, or an upright?
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Thanks, Morodiene. It really is even more inspiring than I expected it to be. Because I bought it with a small inheritance my mother left me when she died last year, it really does bring a new element of feeling into whatever I'm playing. I am especially impressed with the range of pianissimo I can get with this piano. My other piano, a Yamaha U-3 upright, was about as loud as a piano can be. I loved the bright sound for many pieces, but it was hard to be too expressive. I didn't think I'd notice such a difference on the Estonia, but I can play much faster on it. The black keys are a little matte as opposed to shiny like the Yamaha, so my fingers catch on them better. Anyway, it's great fun!
Nancy
Estonia 168
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The sharps on my 70 year old baby grand are worn enough to be textured. I love them.
Slow down and do it right.
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I thought I would check in so that this thread doesn't disappear entirely. For the past 4 weeks I've been setting fractures, both literally and figuratively. While out jogging a month ago I slipped on a patch of ice on the sidewalk and ended up with a partial rupture of my right quadriceps tendon. Treatment options were surgical repair or a more conservative approach of knee immobilization for 6 weeks and then physical therapy. I chose the latter and so I've been wearing this full leg brace all month. Since I can't bend my knee it means I can't pedal! It turns out to be a blessing in disguise because now I can work on Bach, which demands no pedal, and the Revolutionary Etude, for which the use of the pedal is discouraged in the learning phase. So I have been "setting fractures" in this etude. Charles Cooke defines as fractures those parts of a piece that give us trouble. In setting fractures you work on those parts assiduously, intelligently, patiently, obsessively, repeatedly until they have been transformed from the weakest to the strongest parts of the piece. One of my fractures is the passage that runs from m.25 to m.28. By working on that passage diligently everyday, I have now beaten it into submission. I no longer slow down when I get to that part. Other fractures are slowly being set. So I can truly say that it took a leg injury to get me to work diligently on setting fractures in the Revolutionary Etude!
"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP
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