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OK, I'm in. I made the stupid assumption that this piece was on the easy side. I see that it takes a lot of finger control & independence.

Theory question: can anyone analyze in measures 26-28 the chord progression into the key change?

Specifically these three chords:
the end of measure 26: Eb/C
measure 27: Gb/Eb
measure 28: C#/G#

Does this indicate a transition into the C#minor key (as opposed to Emajor) If so, how? How is Db major related to C# minor?

I am quite lacking in theory, sorry!

HI RR:
Glad to have you "in."

Regarding your questions about measures 26, 27, 28 and also how C# minor key is related to the Db major, I will have to get back to you on these.

Theory not exactly being my strong point, does not negate my curosity on the points you have raised. I have several books on Chopin and his works and hope I can find one that addresses these sections. In the meantime, if you don't mind, I am going to send your questions to the Teacher's Forum and the Pianist Corner.

These questions are right up their alley, and I hope they will be able to provide an answer quicker than I can.

I think it's great that you question the reasoning Chopin used in creating this composition. We can all learn from it and, therefore, help add to our knowledge of the piece.

Kathleen

I'm no good at theory either but love guessing... It seems to me that measures 26 and 27 are no different from the beginning (measure 3) except that rather than resolve the aflat7 chord back to dflat it hangs on the aflat getting ready for the key change to c#minor. As to why c#minor rather than Dflat minor...I don't think there is a dflat minor key?

I may change my quote on the bottom to "I'm usually wrong but anxiously await to see how..." :rolleyes:

For RR and the rest of us who would like an explanation of the theory behind Chopin's prelude. I received this from Mike in the Pianist Forum. While I don't quite understand it completely, I am going to study it until I can make a little sense of it.

Kathleen

bar 26: the Eb/C (together with the Ab in the LH) make up the dominant (an Ab major chord based on the 5th note of the scale of Db major.) One would expect the harmony to move back to the tonic (home) key of Db major in bar 27, but Chopin keeps us in suspense instead, leading to...

bar 27: the Gb/Eb (still with the Ab in th LH) now forms the dominant seventh (Gb is the 7th note of the Ab scale), which makes the listener want the music to return to Db major even more, as we now anticipate the Gb falling to an F (the second note of the Db major triad Db-F-Ab)... so the tension builds even more. However...

bar 28: Chopin throws us a slightly curved ball by not returning to the home key is its major guise, but in the minor, though this is not entirely obvious on a very first listening until beat 3 where we hear the minor 3rd for the first time. However once one is familiar with the piece, the surprise is no longer there in its totality, so one tends to hear the minor-ness from the beginning of bar 28... well at least, I think I do .

The relationship between Db major and C# minor in this piece is one of tonic major and tonic minor, i.e. they are the same, except one is major and one is minor. The reason they are notated differently is that Db minor as a key signature doesn't exist (it would have to have B double flat and key signatures never have double flats or double sharps in them). So one could argue that Chopin should have written the first section in C# major to be consistent. However this would have meant a key signature of 7 sharps in the key signature and plenty of double sharps for the accidentals, so it is easier to read in Db major (5 flats). Hence the apparently drastic key change in the middle, though in reality it is just a change from major to minor[1].

So I was basically right (wow, one for three...). If you think of it in terms of a simple song where you have the 1 chord or the Tonic (in this case the Dflat) that is where your song starts. In your good old fashion 1-4-5 song when you go to your 5 chord (dominant) you then return to your tonic. In this case Chopin does not do as he does at the beginning of the piece (measure 3) and go back to the Tonic, instead he adds a seventh to the dominant and makes it hang on a little longer than he did the first time. It sets up the suspense and begs to go back to the tonic chord. If I understand Mike correctly, the mystery of going from the Dflat to the csharp minor is really nothing but Chopin going from a major key to a minor. He just couldn't spell it as a dflat minor as that would have been too complicated, thus the c#minor.

Hey Peyton:

How about giving some of us a few lessons in theory?

I think (think is very essential in this sentence) I understand the chord progression part and Chopin using the C#minor. Now if only understanding it a bit better would help me play it a bit better...

Good for you Peyton. I would imagine knowing what the composer did, how he did it and for what reason (perhaps), makes our appreciation of the piece that much greater.

Chopin, I believe, was a genius in what he could do with the piano. Yes, of course, so many others composed magnificent works for the piano, but I believe Chopin had a unique relationship with it in that he could make it sing and sigh. As I listen to his music (little by little for it overwhelms me at times), I am constantly amazed at how just one chord or even one note can bring can turn a simple melody into a symphony of sound. (I know; I get gushy!)

Kathleen

My theory knowledge pretty much stops at tonic, sub-dominant and dominant. If Chopin only wrote blues I'd have him down!

Well, gosh, Peyton...what other composer could possibly make you feel more "blue" than Chopin?

But honestly, I wouldn't mind a brush-up on a few things.

Like, what is the natural chord progression? From I to V to I then to IV? And where could a person go from there? Or is it a matter of choice?

The subdominant is IV, and the dominant is V?

How can you find the relative minor? I read that you count upwards 5 notes. Like for C major the minor is A minor ...up 5 (starting at D).

Then how do you find the major of a minor? Back down 5? Or up 2?

Is there any special rule for using inversions? And which ones? When do you use the root, 1st or 2nd? Of is it just a matter of what sounds good?

Also that Circle of Fifths? And fourths? Have always been a little confused on how that's supposed to help a person?

Is it true that (when playing by ear and having no key signature), if you hum a tune, for instance. You can discover what key it's in by what the final note is. Then you can start at the beginning to play by ear using that (discovered) key signature to guide you through playing the rest of the song. Then apply some of the basic rules as: using the I, IV I, and V progression to help you add some basic chords?

The last question (whew!) that line:

C D E F G A B
I ii iii IV V vi vii

What does this really mean?

That in the key of C , if you want to play a D or A chord, it would have to be minor?

A B C D E F G
I ii iii IV V vi vii

If, I'm play a piece in the key of A major, would the B or C or F chord have to be minor?

Have I got your brain a whirling? I could alway look in up again in a music theory book, but I think people on the forum explain it so much better.

Feel free to reply as soon as possible.

See, that's what you get for letting us know that you know some theory. :p

Regards, and (just kidding, but really not) Kathleen

Kathleen,

Now here I am feeling so good about myself for actually getting something right and you go and ask all those questions!!! I am most definitely the wrong person to ask. I have taken a little theory but it rarely set in. I write songs so have a rudimentary understanding of progressions. When I look at t work such as the Raindrop I automatically look for the familiar and in this case it did 'play out' like a song.

A good book that explains progressions and chords is The Book Of Chords by Charles Colin.


The 1 chord can progress to any chord. A real common progression (in blues and rock songs) is to go to the sub-dominant (lV) back to the tonic (1), to the dominant 7th (V17) and then back to the tonic. But look below at my added bit on the circle of fifths to see another of many possibilities.

Time to break out that Hannon book. Although I certainly don't have it memorized apparently it's a good idea just to know that when you see 3 flats for instance it could be key of eflat or C minor. I usually drop down two to find the minor if I don't already know it. My dad always told me to check the last notes in the piece to find out what key it's in. That usually works.

I don't know. Well have to ask the masters.

As mentioned the dominant 7th (v7) progresses normally to a 1 chord or a chord whoes letter name is five major scale steps below.. There are tons of exceptions but this is a very standard progression. In the cycle of fifths you simply practice going from one dominant chord to it's tonic all the way through the keys. (C to F, F to Bb, Bb to Eb and so on). I should talk since I have never really studied seriously but I can only assume that for 'the why' it's just good information to have for song writing but also just for understanding why composers do what they do and go where they go in a work.

(added later) I gave some more thought to the question on the 1-v chord and the circle of fifths and how to use it. As an experiment try this progression; C,Ami, Dmi 7, G7 and back to C. I think you will see it as a common progression used back in the 50's and early 60's. Here is how it works (I think). Your tonic C (1 chord) can go anywhere so we go to the Vl chord Ami. Now we follow the circle of fifths back to C. Looking at the circle of fifths Ami goes to Dmi7. Again following the circle Dmi7 goes to G7 and then following the circle it goes to C and you are back home.

I never heard that but it's very interesting and makes sense!

Yes. I'm actually looking in my chord book for this but the chords go as follows;

1 chord is major and called the tonic. ll chord is minor and called the supertonic. lll chord is minor and called the mediant. 1V chord is major and called the sub dominant. V chord is major and called the dominant. Vl chord is minor and called the submediant and the vll chord is diminished and called the Leading Tone.

That's the best I can do and I invite any and all that know more than I on this stuff (not hard to do) to please help out.

Dear Peyton:

What a great lesson! And early on a Sunday morning yet!

You cleared up a few things for me. I will get the book you suggested.

And that's a great idea ...when beginning to learn a new piece...look at the key signature and then try to spot certain chords, their inversions, etc. Maybe it will help reading the chords easier.

Again, thank you. You are a scholar and a gentleman!

Kathleen

The rule is basically, I,IV and V are major and ii,iii and vi are minor. Therefore in the key of C, yes a D chord would be minor as it is ii. This rule only applies for Major Keys though. Minor keys have different patterns. Edly's Music Theory for Practical People is a very good theory book for self-learners. Here's the website: www.edly.com

This theory discussion is interesting. It's a mental stretch since I haven't studied theory in years (and only learned the basics, at that) - But thank you for posting it. It's worth the effort.

So I made a first attempt at recording myself playing the Raindrop today. As far as I can tell, my main problem is that I'm too heavy-handed with the melody. At the moment, it's not "floating" above the harmony - More like stomping on it with oversized winter boots. And I hit a couple of incorrect chords that were so wrong that I was stunned into momentary silence. That's unusual for me. I'm normally unfazed by the occasional wrong note - But I guess sometimes, it's just so wrong that you have to stop and marvel .

Just an update. I'm through the first page (the first 26 measures - right now I'm using the three page Schmirer) and getting ready to start on the "storm," either this evening or tomorrow morning. By "through the first page" I mean it's pretty much up to speed and now more fun than challenging to play. That's my personal guage as to when it's time to send a section to "finishing" and move forward.

Thanks Kathleen, Peyton, Mike, Teachum (good website link...) for the theory discussion.

Yes, how obvious that the C# is enharmonic with Db! I never realized that there was no Db minor, but it makes sense now.

I'm still polishing the first page too, Frycek & Painolina, trying to control the sound and the different voices.

Well all this discussion about theory has my head spinning. The only part that was familar to me was the checking the last note to see if it's in the major key or relative minor. Also, my teacher always made me analyze the chords, which I've sort of been trying to do. Right now I'm still at the back of the class trying to get the right fingers on the correct notes. I actually find that playing both hands together easier than one at a time--probably because of playing right hand notes with the left hand, etc. Well, tomorrow's another day. To relax I played some Czerny.

A curious development. My corgi, Mindy, who usually ignores my playing, won't stay in the same room with me when I practice the "storm" bit. Even though I was playing very softly and slowly those ominous chords apparently give her the willies. This same dog ignores 10/12.

Frycek,

You play the 10/12?

Wow!!!

Mel

What is the 10/12?

Chopin's Revolutionary Etude, Op.10 No.12.

It's very, very hard.

The left hand is all 16th notes.

Mel

I've been working on it since November. I'm about a third of the way through. I look on it as a two year project. I can play it fairly fast but real pianists have nothing to worry about.