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#1096229 - 11/17/08 02:21 PM I'd like your opinion please.............  
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CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
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Yesterday I found a really amazing and awe inspiring piano related video on You Tube that I wanted to share with my friends on the Piano Forum. I posted it on the "Pianists Corner", and, before even one other member could weigh in, Kreisler, the moderator for that forum, wrote the following:

This has been posted here at least 5 times. Closed...

My question to all of you, and to Frank, is: "Do you think this was the proper way to handle this situation?" Let's be clear, I am specifically referring to WAY he did what he did.


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#1096230 - 11/17/08 03:53 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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Horowitzian Offline
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I would say it was a little abrupt considering the circumstances. Especially since there was nothing obscene/vulgar/otherwise objectionable about what you posted. I sent you a PM.


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
#1096231 - 11/17/08 04:07 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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I would agree with you both. It would have taken an extra 3 seconds to write "I'm sorry, but..." at the start of the message frown

#1096232 - 11/17/08 04:20 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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I posted something and got some interesting responses. Didn't go on the forum one day and the next day I saw that a number of replies were deleted and the topic was closed (or something like that). The post was "how long did you wait in line to vote". I guess the responses got out of hand and what they say is true - never discuss politics or religion-LOL


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And finally soared in the morning glow while non-believers watched from below.”
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#1096233 - 11/17/08 04:42 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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Sounds like you caught the mod on a bad day...

best to let it go...

#1096234 - 11/17/08 04:51 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
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I'm sorry. His response was just downright offensive. There is no excuse for that.


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#1096235 - 11/17/08 04:54 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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Have you talked to the mod privately (is it possible?) Moderating can come at difficult moments. I've just worked through several crises where I am and I'm totally drained (I'm a mod and part of a team) - talk to the man.

#1096236 - 11/17/08 04:56 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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Quote
Originally posted by CC2 and Chopin lover:
I'm sorry. His response was just downright offensive. There is no excuse for that.
Did you PM your feelings?

#1096237 - 11/17/08 05:05 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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FWIW, we had a thread in Pianist Corner about the elimination of the star ratings, and it was summarily locked for no apparent reason and without any explanation or comment at all:

No more ratings?

I have no idea why it was considered inappropriate to be discussing that subject—or why the analogous thread here in ABF remains open. (Each forum has different moderators, sure, but I think the underlying policy should be consistent.)

Steven

#1096238 - 11/17/08 05:12 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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Regarding sending him a PM, I tried that immediately after it happened, but, for some reason, there is no option that allows you to do that on his post.


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#1096239 - 11/17/08 05:15 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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I have no idea why it was considered inappropriate to be discussing that subject—or why the analogous thread here in ABF remains open. (Each forum has different moderators, sure, but I think the underlying policy should be consistent.)

Apparently, there seems to be a problem with this particular moderator on this particular forum.


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#1096240 - 11/17/08 06:10 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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Horowitzian Offline
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deleted.


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
#1096241 - 11/17/08 06:20 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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I agree, that was very rude. Besides I'm not sure a thread should be closed because the topic is something already discussed or a video already posted. I believe that different discussions, at different times, even about the same topic, can bring each time new insight, perspectives and contributions, totally different from those already seen in relation with the same topic.

You have my sympathy.

#1096242 - 11/17/08 06:26 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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Frank's rules for moderators:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/23/89.html

Quote
Moderators Wanted

The forums keep growing, we need to add more moderators.
If you are interetested in volunteering to help, please read on...

The Moderator Will:

* Watch for Offensive Posts
* Watch for Inappropriate Pictures
* Warn Offenders
* Remove Inappropriate Pictures
* Ask the Poster of an Offensive Post to Remove It (or clean it up)
* Remove the Offensive Post Themselves if the Poster Refuses (and copy me on the details)
* Warn repeat offenders they can be banned (and keeping me informed of the details)
* Try to Help Posters of Legitimate Questions (by pointing them to the answer if it already exists)
* Alert Me If They See a Particularly Helpful Post (so we can add it to one of the FAQ areas)
* Uphold a Code of Ethics


The Moderator Will NOT:

* Let His/Her Personal Feelings Cloud Their Judgement
* Abuse The Privileges of Being a Moderator
* Override My Decisions
* Attempt to Steer any Guests/Members Toward a Particular Product, Dealer, Tuner, Etc.


Moderator Qualifications:
~ Moderators must be willing and able to put personal feelings aside.
~ They must use good judgement and treat all posters equally.
~ Admittedly it is not always easy to discern between lively debates and crossing the line. Do your best. When in doubt, discuss the posts in question with other moderators.
~ Should visit the forum(s)they are responsible for at least once a day when practical.

Basics to Keep In Mind
Our primary objectives are to provide a good source of information about all things related to the piano, have some fun, enjoy each other's company, share knowledge, learn from each other, and try to be helpful.
And remember, we are a family-oriented web site.


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
#1096243 - 11/17/08 07:23 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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Well, judging by that list, I'd say Kreisler is abusing his position and authority while he is failing to live up to the qualifications for his job.


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#1096244 - 11/17/08 07:43 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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Well, I dunno, I don't particularly think that it was the most polite thing to do, but I don't think it was so bad either. Repeat threads can probably be seen as "cluttering" the forum and if it had indeed been posted 5 times than the moderator probably felt it was right to close this one.


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音楽は楽しいですね。。。
#1096245 - 11/17/08 09:12 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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Well, I dunno, I don't particularly think that it was the most polite thing to do, but I don't think it was so bad either. Repeat threads can probably be seen as "cluttering" the forum and if it had indeed been posted 5 times than the moderator probably felt it was right to close this one.

Initially I was not concerned with the fact that he closed the thread as much as I was the WAY it was done. However, in reading Frank's guidelines for what should warrant closing one, it is apparent that mine, and several others mentioned in this thread, did not meet any of the listed criteria. Therefore, it was a an abuse of his authority to take it upon himself to close it.


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#1096246 - 11/17/08 09:58 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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CC2 and CL
I don't know the moderator, Kreisler, but I have read many of his responses in the past few months, and I find him to be considerate and serious. I can see how you would be somewhat offended at the brusqueness of his response but this being cyberspace and therefore difficult to "read" emotionally, I would suggest that this was not a personal offense and you might consider letting it slide.
This is an excellent virtual community considering the chaos of the web, and the forum is well moderated. I don't think this rises to the level of abuse of authority, and keep in mind that this is a volunteer position that benefits all of us..
Best

#1096247 - 11/17/08 11:26 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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I'm inclined to give Kreisler the benefit of the doubt, this being cyberspace and all, but I still would like to know why a good thread (even if it is a rehash) was closed so abruptly. It makes no sense to me, considering Frank's guidelines. confused


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
#1096248 - 11/17/08 11:51 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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because it was boring? a syndicated re-run ? I don't know.. C'est pas grave as our french allies would say..

#1096249 - 11/18/08 12:12 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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Quote
Originally posted by CC2 and Chopin lover:
Initially I was not concerned with the fact that he closed the thread as much as I was the WAY it was done. However, in reading Frank's guidelines for what should warrant closing one, it is apparent that mine, and several others mentioned in this thread, did not meet any of the listed criteria. Therefore, it was a an abuse of his authority to take it upon himself to close it.
In fairness to Kreisler, though, we only know of his action in the particular case of CC2's thread with the YouTube link. He's not the only moderator, and we don't know who locked thread about ratings because there was no final message. The thread that Kymber mentioned was here in ABF, which isn't Kreisler's domain at all.

I'm very surprised that he has PMs turned off, which means the only way of reaching him is through Brendan, the other moderator in the Pianist Corner, or by using the "Report Post" link.

Steven

#1096250 - 11/18/08 12:19 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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In Kreisler's defence, he may have been abrupt, but he was following what I believe are expectations about threads in the Pianists Corner Forum. Here are two of the things I've noticed from threads in the PC:

- Member recordings are strongly encouraged to be posted in the Member Recordings Forum. Often recordings are moved here by the moderators.

- Threads that are opened solely for the purpose of pointing out a single YouTube video are discouraged. There have been threads aimed at collections of YouTube Videos that are generally the more acceptable place to put this type of a post.

I haven't read enough threads on the PC to know for sure, but I suspect that there is some history to this that we do not know.

I think the best bet is to just let this go. As Obi-Wan would say: "These aren't the droids you're looking for, You can go about your business, Move along" laugh

Rich


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#1096251 - 11/18/08 12:20 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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I can understand that considering the subject matter (an emotional video about human achievement), the response can seem rather cold/heartless and uncalled for. And it's true that it's not technically part of the moderator guidelines.

But, I guess I just don't feel outraged by this. Probably because I use a lot of web forums and this is basically par for the course (repeated threads). After a certain topic is repeated a lot the moderators will feel it is redundant and close it if it happens again.

It will feel harsh to the user because obviously the user doesn't know it's been posted and discussed, for the user it's a new experience, but the moderator is coming from a different perspective, having seen the same discussion played out quite a few times.

Also, the Pianist Corner moderators don't appear too fond of posts dedicated to single links or videos and prefer discussion threads. I noticed that quite a few video threads were locked in the past and there used to be a catch-all thread for any youtube videos to remove them from general posting, but that sticky post has disappeared for some reason.


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音楽は楽しいですね。。。
#1096252 - 11/18/08 12:22 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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Theowne, we were posting at the same time about the same thing. wink


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#1096253 - 11/18/08 12:49 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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Quote
Originally posted by DragonPianoPlayer:
. - Threads that are opened solely for the purpose of pointing out a single YouTube video are discouraged. There have been threads aimed at collections of YouTube Videos that are generally the more acceptable place to put this type of a post.
Then why not moving it to the appropriate thread as I have seen in many other forums? If not, the closing thread comment could specify there's an appropriate area where to re-post the thread or the single post.

#1096254 - 11/18/08 01:35 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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Quote
Originally posted by Andromaque:
I don't know the moderator, Kreisler, but I have read many of his responses in the past few months, and I find him to be considerate and serious. I can see how you would be somewhat offended at the brusqueness of his response but this being cyberspace and therefore difficult to "read" emotionally, I would suggest that this was not a personal offense and you might consider letting it slide.
Well said, Andromaque. I have a very high respect for Kreisler, and I feel his contributions in the PC are always perceptive, insightful, supportive, and very knowledgeable. He's a spiffy chap.

For a while I was moderator on a forum devoted to a young pop musician -that forum is anyway now defunct- but I can tell you that being a moderator is not as glamorous as one might think. It takes patience and time, the latter of which I could have spent with other endeavors.

I seldom contribute to ABF, but I have noticed that CC2 and Chopin lover can be decidedly thin skinned -we tangled once, and I've since read a few of his more hot headed responses (to btb for example) in other threads on ABF- so that might be taken into consideration here.


Jason
#1096255 - 11/18/08 02:03 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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CC2 generally provides good info in PF, so he's got that going for him. I have seen what you mention, though, and my impression was that CC2 gave as good as he got in most cases.

I also have found Kreisler to be an upstanding member and moderator. That's why this episode puzzles me.


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
#1096256 - 11/18/08 08:58 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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Agerichfan stated:
I seldom contribute to ABF, but I have noticed that CC2 and Chopin lover can be decidedly thin skinned -we tangled once, and I've since read a few of his more hot headed responses (to btb for example) in other threads on ABF- so that might be taken into consideration here

I would proffer another take on your assessment of the depth of my epitheleum AF. Perhaps it's just that I don't mind confronting those that do or say outrageous or nonsensical things on here. For instance, several people have just posted that I should move on and let this whole issue go, because, after all, Kreisler is a stalwart citizen of this forum. That's all well and good, but it still does not excuse his approach to this particular situation and the way he chose to handle it. Where, in Frank's rules for moderators, does it state that they should handle other forum members with undeserved rudeness and abruptness, and close threads that have not met the stated criteria of inappropriateness or vulgarity? I think your previous encounter with me may be clouding your objectivity, so I can understand why you'd be inclined to take an opposing stance. I was attempting to post, and spur discussion, about a very inspiring and heart warming video that displays the remarkable achievements that handicapped individuals are capable of. I happen to work in Medicine and Physical Rehabilitation, and this video was definitely piano related and appropriate for that particular forum. I had no way of knowing that it had been posted in the past. We would not be having this conversation right now had Kreisler just moved the thread to another location or politely explained that it had been posted five times in the past. Internet or not, it is very clear that he did not handle it that way. I disagree that I am being thin skinned about this. I suspect that, had it been you or anyone else here that had received a similar response, you would have taken offense as well.


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#1096257 - 11/18/08 09:06 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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#1096258 - 11/18/08 09:22 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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What is the procedure in this forum for complaints of this kind? I understand that there is a team of moderators, since there is also a moderator forum, and there is a site owner (Frank) who has a particular atmosphere, purpose, and criteria in mind. Usually any of these people are contacted in private, and public discussion happens as a last resort.

One thing I haven't been certain about in PW is the question of moderators. Where I moderate the ways to contact the moderator is clearly displayed in each forum. I find that harder to find here.

One thing to keep in mind is that moderating is a volunteer position with no rewards attached, and the behind the scenes activities can be enormous and ultimately tiring. Merely scanning the threads on a daily basis, every day, can be a chore. When you're out of time because of life's commitments you will tend to take swift action and perhaps be short on words.

#1096259 - 11/18/08 09:27 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891
#1096260 - 11/18/08 09:29 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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Be careful Kathleen, you don't want to be accused of being "thin skinned" by some of Kreisler's advocates.


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#1096261 - 11/18/08 10:13 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891
#1096262 - 11/18/08 10:18 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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I understand how some of you might be frustrated, but the only thing I'll say about this situation is this : publically complaining about a moderator on a different forum is bad form. frown


Started playing in mid-June 2007. Self-taught... for now. :p
#1096263 - 11/18/08 10:42 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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publically complaining about a moderator on a different forum is bad form.

I'll respond to this as follows:

I attempted to address this directly with Kreisler immediately after this occurred, but he has turned off the ability to PM him, for some reason. Regarding addressing this on another forum, that is the only way I knew to keep him from closing this thread as well.

Let me give you a much better example of bad form:

This has been posted here at least 5 times. Closed...


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#1096264 - 11/18/08 10:58 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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Les Koltvedt Offline
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Not one to often state my views publicly, I have to agree with CC2...it should have been handled better. Kreisler stepped up and volunteered to be a moderator and with that comes SOME RESPONSABILITY to the forum members. regardless of how he feels that day, if his schedule was tight and didn't have time to respond appropriately...none of that was of CC2's concern or fault, he SIMPLY was posting something of interest.

jm $0.02


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#1096265 - 11/18/08 11:03 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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Quote
Originally posted by keystring:
What is the procedure in this forum for complaints of this kind?
Click on the "report post" icon (looks like a blowing whistle). This will send a notification containing your question/complaint/comment to all moderators of the forum in question and to Frank.


Greg
#1096266 - 11/18/08 11:14 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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Thanks, Greg. Well, I don't have to ask the next question - whether mods are aware of this situation here, because I see "moderator" under your name.

One more thing about the "whistle" - It will go to the mod of the forum in question and no other forum, but to Frank as well? That seems to be an efficient system.

This would also mean that CC is able to contact Kreisler after all, even if his PM is disabled - via the whistle. Am I right?

#1096267 - 11/18/08 11:21 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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sotto voce Offline
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Early this morning, a new thread was started in Pianist Corner called Revolutionary feat .

Somehow, I just knew from the title that it was going to be about Cameron Carpenter playing Chopin's "Revolutionary" etude on the organ with his feet—and I was right!

I've seen this posted before, but a half-dozen others (so far) apparently had not. I wonder if it will be locked or moved.

Steven

#1096268 - 11/18/08 11:28 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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I went to that "whistle" icon and expressed my dissatisfaction with the way it was handled. I await a response.


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#1096269 - 11/18/08 11:33 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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Quote
Originally posted by sotto voce:
Somehow, I just knew from the title that it was going to be about Cameron Carpenter playing Chopin's "Revolutionary" etude on the organ with his feet—and I was right!

LOL, I didn't even bother to open it- I thought it was yet another YouTube of some 6 year old Asian whizkid, this time playing the Revolutionary.

But since it's the glorious Cameron, well all bets are off. Alas, I had plenty to say the last time that video was posted!


Jason
#1096270 - 11/18/08 11:38 AM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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Quote
Originally posted by keystring:

One more thing about the "whistle" - It will go to the mod of the forum in question and no other forum, but to Frank as well?
Correct.

Quote
Originally posted by keystring:

This would also mean that CC is able to contact Kreisler after all, even if his PM is disabled - via the whistle. Am I right?
Yes. The notification goes to the moderators (and Frank's) personal email, it does not use the PM system.


Greg
#1096271 - 11/18/08 12:26 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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#1096272 - 11/18/08 02:33 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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Steven,
I'm not sure what that means. How did someone else get to post on that thread if it had been closed?


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#1096273 - 11/18/08 02:36 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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Quote
Originally posted by CC2 and Chopin lover:
I'm not sure what that means. How did someone else get to post on that thread if it had been closed?
A moderator can break into a locked thread, and Brendan's a moderator. (I know this having been a moderator on another forum.)


Jason
#1096274 - 11/18/08 02:43 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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But if he concurs with what was said and done, why is he reopening the thread?


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#1096275 - 11/18/08 03:16 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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...he isn't. A moderator can post in a locked thread. I suppose that Brendan may have caught wind of some of the "drama" and wanted to make it known that it was now a unanimous "decision" rather than one corrupt moderator becoming power hungry.


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#1096276 - 11/18/08 03:57 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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I wouldn't expect one moderator to contradict another, so this doesn't surprise me. It will be interesting to see how Frank weighs in.


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#1096277 - 11/18/08 04:04 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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#1096278 - 11/18/08 04:42 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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#1096279 - 11/18/08 05:41 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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My hats off to Kreisler. That showed class.


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#1096280 - 11/19/08 02:23 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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CC2

I too was a little offended that the thread was closed and so abruptly. So probably within a couple of hours of your post, I wrote to the moderator suggesting that even if something had been posted in the past that there are so many new members joining or viewing each year and even others like myself who are finally participating in 'other' sections of forums, that to close something that might be inspirational (such as your post) should be reconsidered.

I am not exactly sure how I did that. Maybe under REPORT the thread, instead of a PM?

I was glad to see that it was reopened.

I can't imagine the work that she has done to accomplish what she has. And she surely was inspirational to me.

Just a note of thanks to you for sharing with us and to let you know that your contributions are appreciated!


"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."
#1096281 - 11/20/08 12:14 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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Thanks LL. That means alot to me. I am glad people are being inspired by this amazing young woman.


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#1096282 - 11/20/08 06:42 PM Re: I'd like your opinion please.............  
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I saw the performance and thanks for sharing!

- Mark


...The ultimate joy in music is the joy of playing the piano...
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