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Hey DVS


we like it in the DAWG pound dude


Lee

This new adventure sounds exciting and fun Rosanna....keep us inform of your progress

Rosanna;

I too will be looking forward to hearing (and listening) to your PM progress.

As you may know, I have invented my own home-brew method of learning piano which revolves around two basic principals; cheating and stealing!.

The "cheating" part comes from my use of some form of a written score that I use as a guide to improvise from.

The "stealing" portion comes from closely listening to what many of the PM players are doing in the performances and copying it.

I really love Lee's full usage of the ENTIRE keyboard when he plays a tune. Making any piece sound full and rich (like a one person orchestra) really appeals to me and I like the way many of the PM students/players do it.

The only pitfall I see is Mikes strict adhearance to NOT using any written score whatsoever as that may be counter productive to what he's trying to teach you to do.

While I fully understand his reasons for doing so, I would never have been able to learn pieces like Nefeli, To Zanarkand, Path of Repentence etc as I've never heard these tunes before and so I could not "humm" them.

Even if I could humm them, they are way too complicated to play by ear (IMO).

Still, the proofs in the pudding and I have only very positive compliments for what many of the PM students have accomplished which is why I'm eager to see your progress as well.

Hi Mr SH,

I am as curious as you are to see how I will progress!

Your stealing and cheating have served you well from what I can tell! I am not that good learning things without any guidance, so I doubt very much I can get anywhere by trial and error. It would cause me too much frustration - and when it's no fun, I would just give up.

As for learning without any sheet music (a la PM), I think it boils down to what one wants to do. For me, I am very glad about this particular aspect of PM. If I am allowed to "cheat" by reading lead sheets, I will never develop my ears - not just for the melody, but for hearing chord changes in general. I do see the pitfall, if you want to call it that, that with PM, it may be challenging to play the "new age" tunes, as they really aren't singable. I imagine it's quite possible to play improv based on the hummable skeletons of those songs tho'. [Senior PM members, feel free to jump in!]

But like I said, it boils down to where one wants to get to. Luckily, if I want to play the new-age pieces, I can sight-read! (Jab, jab )) But it turns out I would love to play pop singable tunes - Bee Gees included, Monica! And boy, I watched Mike play on some PM videos. Wow, I love it!

Anyway, with ABF's eyes on me, I hope I can make y'all proud!

I would like to see a combo of lead sheets, PM methods, and improvising all wrapped into one.

I guess THAT'S what I'm trying to do but I can't speak of the PM portion since I've never taken the PM course. (Again, that's where the "stealing" portion comes in!).

I do know of, er..um, *some* un-named member of PM that DOES use lead sheets but like I said, I think Mike discourages that.

If Mike offered a course that combined the pricipals of the PM methods along with using lead sheets and written scores, I would jump in in a second. Again, I have no idea if this is possible as may just be counter productive.

I guess I'll just keep on cheating and stealing various piano methods as in some weird way, it works for me.

Hi Mr S-H

Why would he do that?

His course is about learning to play solo piano by ear and the way to do that is to play without lead sheets or written music :p

You can already play with lead sheets and writen music the only bit you want to learn is how to PBE and thats the bit he teaches :p

BTW...Mike uses lead sheets all the time and can read music too...its not forbidden it just doesn't help much when learning to play by ear (or else everyone would simply be able to do it just by reading lead sheets or when playing written music wouldn't they?)


regards


Lee

Im looking forward to see how "SL II" is going to do, too

Lee:

I must admit that being able to sight read along with the ability to play by ear can be an incredible combination.

Someone could play scores that they have never heard before by sightreding and once they get the jist of the piece, embellish it with their own personal inflections.

To be honest, I think the piano player with the greatest advantage in any situation is someone who can proficiently do both. (kind of a best of both worlds scenario).

I can sightread music, just not very good but ultimately can get through an advanced beginer/intermediate piece.

I try very very hard to learn how to play by ear and am doing so with some succsess.

So far, I have accomplished this by doing two things:

1.) Paying VERY close attention to where certain sounds and combinations of sounds come from (and memorizing them).

2.) As nutty as this may sound, I consider myself to be an athority of how NOT to do certain things!. I.e, I know why you should'nt stick a scewdriver in an electrical socket!. ..I know why you don't lick the frost on a freezer with your tongue!. I even know why you don't want to try and light a fart on fire as a college prank!.

This sort of applies to my piano learning experiences. I know what combinations of notes DON'T work together even though I have no idea of the actual theory behind it.

I just know that with much daily practice I have been able to make the connection between many compatibly sounding notes and chords as well as numerous combinations of notes and chords that just don't work.

while I do have my reasons for doing my "dumb-luck" way of figuring stuff out, my comprehension of the newly learned matterial is much better as now I not only know what works, but what does'nt as well.
I admit this is NOT the most effecient learning method and is in many ways re-inventing the wheel. I guess my only response would be that although my method may not be efficient, it IS effective; at least for me.

No matter what learning methods are used, the bottom line is that in order for them to be *effective*, the student must be able to respond to it and make noticable progress. Having fun while doing so is also paramount for the longevity of any activity as well.

I am making progress using my wacky methods and still having a lot of fun in the process so I guess I am meeting my goals. That said, I am always open to better, more efficient methods of learning and would highly encourage others to do the same.

I am NOT willing to give up my written scores/lead sheets just yet but at the same time, I would be willing to learn how to play by ear in the abscense of them. Ultimately, my goal is to combine the two into a deadly combination or arsenal from which to draw from.

This is why I am very much looking forward to hearing and listening to Rosanna's progress.

Btw, Lee. I don't know if I ever asked you but can you read music?/sightread?. Just wondering 'cuz you seem to have a good grasp on the PBE aspect of playing music.

Hi Mr SH

If you are having fun...then thats all that matters IMHO

I have a feeling you are going to be thrilled with Rosanna's progress

I can read a lead sheet in the key of C, F and G however only at slow speed...tricky keys? not a chance in heck!

I cannot read music at the moment


Lee

Mr. SH,

Lee has essentially mentioned this, but I just wanted to mention that things at Piano Magic aren't quite that dogmatic. Your methods (both cheating and stealing ) obviously work for you...all we have to do is listen.

However, the goal at PM isn't to make you "give up" the rest of the piano methods. It is just encouraged that you put them on hold while your trying to learn a new method. You don't even really have to put them on hold. Other methods don't interfere with PM. It's just that other methods take your time away from PM hence slowing your progress with PM.

You've been around here enough and have heard these things 1000 times, but your post made it sound like once you join PM, everything else goes into the fire. I just wanted to make sure that you knew that isn't the case.

Even though you play beautifully...much better than me. I think you would benefit from PM because you wouldn't have to "cheat and steal"....you'd learn to do it all by your self.

Just my 2 cents.

Best of luck....

Mr SH, I second what Troy says 110%. For someone like you who already has developed an ear, you'll speed to the more advanced lessons and start your "cheating and stealing" there. [Edit: just discovery really, not cheating nor stealing.] For me, if I use lead sheet (which, ahem, Lee supposedly did, naughty, naughty), I would never develop my ear. But you are past that stage already!

Sheesh Troy, your thinking/perspective works for me like a glove!! I couldn't have said it better!

Yikes, pressure!! I can't take it!!

mispost.

Troy & Rosanna,

Thanks for your further clarification. Not having to give up written music is a major plus as I have become so used to relying on them as my *guide*.

If you have listened to any of my piano pieces, you will notice that in many places I have completely re-written the score in various places. I really enjoy doing this but only if I think (in my opinion of course) that I am adding something to the score.

This may come across as being a bit cocky or what have you like I have the ability to compose a score better than the original composer but that is NOT it at all.

I do this more for the creative aspect of it as I really enjoy composing but I don't know how so instead, I simply "alter" someone elses music.

I've said this before that my favorite music is "LIVE" performances or cover tunes done by other bands. It is so refreshing to hear a really nice variation of a tune you already know and love. This is what I enjoy doing most on the piano as well.

For this reason, being able to play by ear comes in very handy but I am only a self-taught novice at that as well.

Maybe someday after I've exhausted my own methods I'll give PM a try and possibly sooner; who knows.

Then again, I might just cause too much trouble and get booted out!

PMMO would teach you exactly WHY those particular notes and chords sound so compatible (and lots of other neat musical magic "tricks"). I think you'd just breeze along with this stuff SH since you're already so advanced. I don't need the lead sheets anymore except once in a great while I'll get stuck on a real tricky/jazzy chord, then I sneak a peek at the lead sheet.

Is PM a "community" like the AB forum and do they have online recitals?. Also, are PM members a separate group or are a lot of the PM members PW AB forum members as well?.

I know some of them are, I'm just wondering how many.

Curious thats all.

Mr. SH, You never need to apologize or rationalize to anyone why you do what you do! I consider what you do totally creative and beautifully improvisational, and that's exactly what I want to be able to do too. I just don't have the talent to do it on my own, so I need lessons.

The PM community is every bit as wonderful as ABF. The one big difference is that Mike is a big part of it by providing great insights and instruction, which is of course a major part of the forum there. It's both members helping each other, but it is after all a paid online course, so the teacher *better* be there - and he is in a big way.

I recognize about half dozen ABF members, I think. I see from past posts that there are some ABF members who joined PM at one point but may no longer be a paid member.

There is a recital hall section, a "cinema" where more videos are featured. Other senior PMers can say a lot more about these since I am too green to take advantage of them at this time. Mike also has many more instructional videos and audios besides the lessons. Sometimes those are made specifically for one member (which shows how enthusiastic a teacher he is), but of course those videos and audios benefit everyone at some point.

Mr SH, It's very curious to me how any PM discussions tend to bring out this particular discussion - about whether PM discourages playing from lead sheet, what else happens in the "cult", etc. Now I say this with sincerity for your consideration. My guess is that something about what you hear (in these posts and in the students' music) intrigue you. Perhaps you have some intuition that there may just be something for you in PM. But you can only find out so much without joining PM, which I suppose is frustrating to an extent. So whenever a new thread arises on PM, you question, you probe. (I was doing the same, but with different questions.) I suggest that you call up Mike. (Heck, tell him SL II sent you - just kidding.) I have a feeling you guys will hit it off really well. Tell him what you are hoping to learn. In fact I strongly suggest that you play him something over the phone. This will no longer be abstract - you'll hear his comments, what he has to offer, (or may be he'll suggest something/someone else!)and you'll get a much better idea if there is anything for you at PM, now or later.

signed SL II

Ahem, SL I, how did I do? :t:

PERFECTAMUNDO...secret agent Rosanna :p


M

"SL I"...?
"SL II"...?
"M"...?

I need a PM "D"!

"D" = decoder! :p

Decoding for Mr. SH: SL II is from my earlier post (pg 1) in this thread.

Hi all,

This is my first post. We're taking delivery of our first piano on Saturday. It's ostensibly for my 6 year old son who recently started taking lessons, but I am considering learning myself.

I've become intrigued by PM after reading this thread. If I understand Troy's post above, can I take the PM course and follow it up with something more formal like Alfred's without any adverse effects? I like the idea of being able to start playing as soon as possible but then perhaps working through the books as well. Thanks a million for your input.

Cheers,

Erik

Hey Erik, welcome.

Use the search function for Piano Magic or Play by ear, and you should see a ton of stuff on it.

The short answer is you can do any/all of the different methods, and they all build on each other, IMHO. The only "hook" is, for me, I could not do both at the same time, so I went with the Alfred's first and put PM aside for later. I see no reason you could not do it the other way around.

BTW, your name caught my eye. UP or BNSF or ???

A bit of a boomer, I worked for UP first,then SP, then BNSF.