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Having worked through Alfred's Level 3 I'm supposed to know the circle of fifths. We'll see. The piece is C# minor so we would expect to see the chords C#-, F#- and G#7. The first measure starts with C#-, which goes to C#-7/B, which I guess is OK but then I see the third measure as an A or A7 which is a huge key change (to me) to Dmajor. But instead of going to D, it goes to D7 which is another key change to Gmajor. But instead of going to G, it goes to G#7 , which resolves to C#-, so we are back in C#-. Wow, that's a lot of action for five measures.

Am I thinking about this the right way?

Hi all! My instructor is pushing me on "Toccata" and for me the fingering in that is I've taken a look at "Moonlight Sonata' and decided LATER :-). Happy Playing and take care!

Hey!

Moonlight Sonata is in fact a popsong???!!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

(at least that's how I learned to play popsongs. inverting chords to turn them into a melody!)

Ingrid

It certainly looks like it is.... just that it remains popular longer than many/most popsongs.

Dave, your comments on my analysis would be appreciated. There's no point moving forward until I've got the first part correct.

Ingrid, don't you find that it is easier to play when you write down the chord sequence?

Hi, OF, sorry I didn't see your post before. I saw Ingrid's post and I thought that was the latest post.

On other forums that I subscribed to, whenever there is a new post on a thread, there is a special symbol that I can click, and it will show the threading starting from the new post. I can't seem to find similar thing on this forum. Is there such a thing here?

It is nice that you are stuyding the circle of fifth, but chord progression doesn't always follow that. That are many different progressions. Some are more common for particular period or styles (like jazz, blues), but as in any arts form, the composer/creator can make deliberate, sometimes sudden or strange changes that make the artworks interesting.

I have meant to put some simple scores here, but I haven't downloaded the free lilypond notation software yet. But assuming we are familiar with the notation of 1=do, 2=re, 3=mi etc. please try this in C key (and the reason I am doing this is because when we are beginning, it is easier for us to see/feel things in C key, but the purpose of this is to show that in Moonlight Sonata, it is something similar but just in another key)

right hand:
361 361 361 361 | 361 361 361 361 | 461 461 47b2 47b2 | 35#2 361 367 25#7 | 136 361 361 361 |

left hand playing chord:
Am - - - | C(bass G) - - - | F - Bb(base D) - | E7 Am(bass E) E7 - | Am

Play each 3 notes as triplets, and play the last note of each triplet as a higher note, so for the first measure, it is E A high C instead of E A C.

Now the analysis part (and different people will come up with a slightly different analysis, like if you analyse a piece of artwork, some will say the artist is using complementary scheme so he wants some blue here, others might say, oh he is not doing complementary scheme here, he just throws in some different hue for contrast, so analysises(?) might be different, and that is ok)....

You notice that the first two measures are basically Am chord on the right hand side. The chord that I put for left hand, however, goes from Am to C. In this case I don't the purpose is to change chord, the purpose is to stay in Am but the bass walks down to F. C chord has the 13 part, so it works well with the Am, just the bass walking down from A to G and then to F.

The change from F to Bb is an interesting one that you asked. It is hard to explain, but it makes nice tone going from F to Bb (a perfect 4th). Then it goes to E7.

We note at least 2 things Beethoven is doing: first, when going to one chord to another, he keeps the changes in notes to the minimal (so it doesn't sound abrupt). Second, the chords are familiar and familiar chords for minor keys.

In additional to the above, he also use inversion to bring out the bass, so the bass go (downward) A G F D E E A. You should just play the bass progression a few times until you completely feel the muscicality and beauty of it.

And singing it out helps a lot too in bringing out the feeling part. Like I hold out my hands and sing it out as if I am the best opera singer with a great bass tone: la- sol- fa- re- mi- mi- la.

So my analysis (again, different people will have different one) is for the first 5 measures, the right hand is just broken chords and function more like accompaniment, whereas the bass carry the melody and it does that beautifully.

I hope you will try the above. Of course you can do it in C# minor, but try to see the analysis first in C key. Maybe everyone is different, but when I was younger/newer, I was able to see things clearer in C key as that is the key we started with.

Then appreciate the same thing in C#m.

Hope this is a little useful to anyone interested.

PS: I should add that although I put 4 chords for measure 5, Moonlight Sonata doesn't have it that way. It is useful to see what is going on with the chords, however, even though in Moonlight Sonata, only the bass is used.

Well, I mentioned before that I was going to check out Burgmuller's 25 Progressive Pieces, Opus 100 through interlibrary loan. I have it now. It looks pretty good. Easy (Alfred Book3 people can certainly do it).

But the nice thing is that you can see that he is handling different techniques (like for thirds, for legato, for fingering, etc.) in each short piece. I think for some that do not like too strict or formal finger exercises like Hanon, this is a good book to consider in additional to any repertoire book that you might want to work with.

Here is one paragraph from the back end:

"His Opus 100, originally entitled 25 Etudes faciles et progressives, composees et doigtees expressement pour l-etendue des petites mains is his most famous work. It well deserves an important place in the teaching literature for young pianists because of the many characteristic technical problems that are dealt with in a variety of pleasing selections. Through this medium the student is exposed to the problems of phrasing, dynamics and other elements of musical expression."

Dave, this might seem strange to you but I would rather think in the key in which the piece was written. Otherwise I have to transpose your analysis from Am to C#- and that doesn't come easily to me. Is there any chance you would redo your analysis in C#-?

OF, just start with the first two measures and you will see what I mean exactly. Really.

It is completely applicable in any key.

As it is for analysis only, you don't have to play it perfectly. Just press the keys to make the sound, and slowly press the Am and C keys, which I am sure you are familiar with.

And then the analysis part is exactly the same if I write for C#m or for Am. But please do two measures. There is a secret hidden there, so please try it. And after you do 2 measures, you might be lured into finishing the next 3 which is pretty simple in C key too.

Then I can give you the chords in C#m if need help on that, but they analysis is the same.

Hello everybody!

Time for a small update. Moonlight is kind of brewing in the background right now. I have the feeling something needs to settle in my mind (or in my hands) before I'll move on with it. I like the theory discussion though. And I'll keep on playing around with it. I secretly wish I could cover a nine, but I know that's not an excuse (my teacher can't stretch mOre then an octave & she's doing pretty well!). Like I saDs, the bit I am playing so far sounds pretty much OK for a start, but it doesn't 'feel' completely right yet.

Also I have the idea it's time for a few more straightforward pieces out of the 'normal' part of the Alfred's book. Very special day is done, and I am now working on the classy rag. Nice piece! But a lot of 'jumpy' movements.

I'm also playing a lot of Satie again. Like I said, I really want to keep those Gnossiennes in repertoire, but that only works when you keep on playing them! (at least for me). I feel such a real beginner when I don't have a few pieces to just play (even without a score) when I run into a piano somewhere (or when somebody asks for a tune in my home). After 2 years of playing I think that's something I should be able to handle.


How nice that you made such a good impression with your Satie Mark! Was it the gymnopedie? How is it coming along?? I'm just wondering...is he a well known composer in the US?? Here in Europe most people that are into pianoplaying know him, or at least recognize his most 'famous' pieces. Funny differences between Europe & the US maybe? (by the way, my pianoteacher never heard of this new age composer David Nevue that is so popular here on the forum. Is he an american??)

Did some of you guys participate in the recital by the way? I scrolled through real quickly (no time to listen yet) and I saw John, and I think Mark. I'll check it out tomorrow. I really want to try out some recording stuff as well. It's weird posting here all the time and not being able to actually share some sound. Do you guys have some real recording equipment? The only thing we have in the house so far that is able to record is a mobile phone. Is probably not the ideal quality...

Ingrid

PS....Oh! I forgot...just yesterday I noticed that all of a sudden I obtained such a nice member rating!!
Whoever it was.....thanks!!!!!!!

Ingrid - I submitted the "Serenade" piece to the Recital - and yes, Mark does have a piece there too, but nobody else that I noticed. You should listen to all the pieces and then post comments in the General Discussion thread.

I found out in doing some research on the history of the String Quartet that it's taken from that it wasn't composed by Haydn after all, but by a Benedictine monk named Roman Hoffstetter (I detail this a little in my remarks in the Recital writeup) - Book 3 still gives credit to Haydn.

I record through an analog-to-digital converter called Presonus which then goes direct to a program on my computer called Cubase (various versions available) and convert the file to an mp3 using the built-in conversion program in Windows. This is not the typical procedure, nor the easiest. For tips on how to best record see the section about it in the thread "Important Topics on The Adult Beginners Forum" always near the top of the thread list.

Hope you're having mostly fun playing and learning - I know I am! I'm working on 3 separate pieces in Book 3 plus 2 other pieces now, and still trying to get a good recording of them all.

Regards, JF

Hi Ingrid, I think that is a good decision. Don't push yourself too far beyond what you can comfortably do now because that will lead to frustration.

I don't know your background, but for people who just completed Book3 without other prior background, I would actually not recommend doing Moonlight Sonata.

If someone really likes to play it though, my recommendation would be to play a few short pieces that have triplets to get the feel, then play a few pieces that is in minor key (doesn't even have to be C#m, just minor keys so we can be familiar with the tune/feel), then perhaps a few short and easy pieces in C#m. After that, it will be easier to approach Moonlight.

For some that might take a couple of months, others longer, but then when you do Moonlight, it takes shorter time to learn, so you are not really losing anything. My approach in learning and teaching (not teaching piano, however) is in general this way. Other teachers might disagree though.

Hi Book Three Folks,

I am currently in Book One of the All in One Course, and I've just finished that tune called "Good People" on p.117. Here are my questions to you more advanced Book 3 folks:

Are you capable of going back to pieces in Books 1 and 2 and now sight read them and play them smoothly? Like the piece "Good People?" Or will it take you a day or so to be refamiliarize yourself with them?

My concern is that although I am up to p.119 @ this point, it would take me some getting refamiliarized with previously learned pieces if I wanted to play them again.

Is that normal and to be expected?

Thanks again, and congratulations to all who are in the land of Book 3 or beyond.

-Angelo

Ingrid-

Don't look for me in the recital. I'm not there! LOL

As for updates, I'm on my own for a couple weeks. My teacher is getting married this week and is not teaching this week or next. If I can keep myself on track with practice, I may be able to make some progress with the pieces I'm working on. Either that, or the procrastinator in me will put off the "work" part and just do "fun" stuff!

Angelo - see my response to your question in your new thread with the same topic/questions. JF

I have become completely obsessed with the "Moonlight Sonata". Last week I prepared the first two pages and my teacher was quite pleased with my progress. He encouraged me to move onto the next two pages which I have now done, albeit very poorly. But I now have marked out all the chords for the entire piece and find they are all doable. Although my fingers are indeed "old" they manage to reach the ninths without pain and I must say it is a thrill to play them in this piece.

Dave, I must apologize for being a poor student of theory but I am too lazy to transpose your Am version of the Sonata. I'm perfectly happy working in C#-, so if you'd like to do your analysis in that key I'd be happy to study it. One question I have, however, is with your identification of chords in the left and right hands. For the most part, aren't the notes in the LH elements of the same chord in the RH?

Like Mak, I'm not in the recital either. I can't seem to overcome the fear of the red dot.

Hi OF,

Actually I tried to surprised because I thought most people were more familiar with Am key, so I used the familiar chords, but actually what I typed above is Moonlight Sonata in Am key.

The chords, if transposed to C#m minor would be:

left hand playing chord:
C#m - - - | E(bass B) - - - | A - D (base A) - | G#7 C#m(bass G#) G#7 - | C#m

But if you have written the chord out in C#m keys, you have done the same thing. I was going to point out that the chords are familar chords, and the right hand is just playing the broken chords. I think you got that already by your own analysis.

Hi all - Just about to wrap up the Prelude in D minor and noticed the note at the end about now trying the Bach Prelude at the beginning of the Ambitious Section - looks like a lot of 16th notes all run together - those of you who tried this piece at this point, did you feel that you were ready for it, and how did you make out with it?

Also, I see that the next Book 3 piece in line is the "Star Spangled Banner" - where did I hear that before? I can't think of a song that's been "butchered" more often than this one (sometimes on purpose) - I was never that crazy about this as our National Anthem and always thought that "America, the Beautiful" was much better (and a whole lot easier to sing) - maybe we need to get a movement going to change that

Regards, JF

I got away from "Star Spangled Banner" because it is a too nice of a song to butcher" and I just was not getting!!

I'll be on Toccata In D for a while! I think anything from Bach will be a great challenge! His fingering (according to my instructor) is pretty exact!

Good luck!