Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician

Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Schumann's 4th Finger
Schumann's 4th Finger Enigma Resolved
Who's Online
65 registered (bennevis, Cade, Buckster, augustm, Birdgolf, ando, 18 invisible), 1584 Guests and 9 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2
Topic Options
#1056211 - 08/17/04 04:32 PM Re: DOMINANT PREPARATION -- Now where did I put that darned whip again? (III)
plays88skeys Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 3091
Loc: Richmond, VA
Sorry to learn you were sick, Matt. I'd have nursed you myself if I'd only known.

Thank you for your help in guiding the adult students to better understand theory. Your dusty, wooden examples are just great. Actually, Good King Wenceslaus rocks!

p.s. - I stole your whip. You can stop looking for it now.
There are no shortcuts to any place worth going. - Beverly Sills

Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1056212 - 08/17/04 05:18 PM Re: DOMINANT PREPARATION -- Now where did I put that darned whip again? (III)
Matt G. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 3789
Loc: Plainfield, IL
Originally posted by RKVS1:
Is there a term for 2-tone chords, or chords that are missing one of the main triad notes (1,3 or 5)
I've heard "power chord" used when just the root and the 5th is played, and I'm not sure how "power" became the chosen word, but that's not the aspect of the question I'm interested in right now.

For the situation I'm thinking of, the word "open" or "ambiguous" or "transfer" might work better.[/b]
For want of a better term, I would call them "ambiguous" in most contexts. Generally, it is the third above the root of a triad that is the determining tone in whether the triad is major or minor. An open 5th with no intervening 3rd is ambiguous. It could be used in a number of places where one wanted to keep the harmony ambiguous, but for the most part that would have been considered a non-standard usage.

As for calling them "power chords," this is a terminology (and technique) originally used by guitar players, who wanted to make their part in an ensemble more prominent. By using only the root and fifth of the chord, they get more volume (and strangely enough, even on the piano, you'll get overtones that suggest a major chord).
more of RKVS1:
Measure 20's chords are:
EbM7, Bb, F7, g, F7,F or
4M7, 1,57, 6m, 57,5, (in key of Bb)

Measure 21 FIRST chord contains 3 Bb's and 1 D, while the next chord adds a G so it has Bb, D, D, G

So the second chord is a Gminor triad, while the first chord could be Bb Major triad if an F was added, or a Gminor triad if a G had been added.[/b]
OK, don't get too worked up over this particular one. A fairly common voicing for a chord could just be the root and the third (recall what I just said about it being the determinant interval), often with the root tripled. In fact, this is such a common resolution for a dominant (well, looky there, that's what precedes it!) that it is given special consideration.

Bob continues....
My point is that it is a kind of swing chord ... it is almost the Bb that the last 2 F chords in Measure 20 would normally fall too and its almost the Gminor triad that the next 4 measures are rooted on.
Seems like there might be a tidy little name for this thing... "modulating ambiguosichord " or something. (hopefully something other than THAT.)[/b]
Ah, yes, well, isn't g minor the relative minor to Bb Major? Actually, even if one were to ignore the triple-root idea presented just above, the resolution from the dominant to the submediant is very commonly referred to as a deceptive resolution (see what I wrote above about this), which also underscores the whole Major/relative minor relationship.

Yes, even more Bob...
A similar thing happens 2 measures later as the tonal center shifts from Gminor to Cminor.

The chords up to then are
g?Bb? (the chord mentioned above) g,D7,g, |bar| Ahalfdim, D , g, and then 2 more ambiguous chords, dX and G7X

(so far its been
i(?) , i , V7 , i , |bar| ii halfdim , V , i , dX , G7X ) (in Gminor.)

The last two chords in the measure contain the following notes.

(beat 4) F G D A and (beat 4&) F G D G
The first would be some form of a Dminor chord, and the second some form of a G(Major or Minor)7th chord, but the Bb or B which would declare it as a major or minor is missing.

(the next chord is a Cminor triad which sets the tone for the next several measures)
so the progression to the first Cminor chord, (as expressed in Cminor) would be ii . (V7 or v7), i[/b]
Here's a handy hint for deciphering weird chords: rearrange them so you can stack them in thirds (all lines or all spaces). When dealing with extended harmonies, it is common to leave many of the notes out of the stack. So your first chord (FGDA) stacks D F A (C) (Eb) G, an 11th chord. 11th chords are usually just suspensions, though. Check the harmony just prior: is there a G that appears to be held over?

The second (FDGD) stacks G (Bb) D F; a 7th chord. Wait, no third??? OK, let's see what follows: a c minor chord. Hmm, sounds like a secondary dominant (or if you're going to c minor, then the dominant in c minor). Why no third? Sometimes voice leading can lead you into a strange spelling for a chord. It happens.

and finally
I see the point of leaving the determining note out of the chord ... it makes the transition a bit less abrupt ... but I'm just wondering if there is an accepted or common terminology for the technique or the chords used.[/b]
Actually no, this is not really any particular technique. A composer will make lots of decisions on voicing harmonies in deference to voice leading (making the inner voices smoother with mostly stepwise motion) or playability, especially for keyboard instruments. In this particular case, it was apparently felt acceptable that the third be omitted in favor of, most likely, one or the other of the above.
Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens

#1056213 - 08/20/04 09:58 AM Re: DOMINANT PREPARATION -- Now where did I put that darned whip again? (III)
Matt G. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 3789
Loc: Plainfield, IL
As an extra-added aid in understanding some of the concepts I've presented in this lesson, I'd like you to take a look at this cool little gadget that Frank B. is making available at his pianosupplies.com site: the Circle of Fifths Clock ! Even if you don't buy one, print a copy of the clock face; it's a much better visual than I can possibly render here by typing.
Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens

#1056214 - 08/20/04 10:00 AM Re: DOMINANT PREPARATION -- Now where did I put that darned whip again? (III)
Liesle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/25/04
Posts: 192
Loc: Southern Illinois
I thought it would be some type of bondage device, after reading the leader in 'Today's Active Topics'. ;\)

Seriously, I am looking forward to personally understanding what we are talking about. I AM studying but I am afraid I suffer from Fifth's Disorder.

(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
#1056215 - 08/20/04 11:10 AM Re: DOMINANT PREPARATION -- Now where did I put that darned whip again? (III)
RKVS1 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 3192
Loc: Topeka, Kansas
I bought one of those Circle-of-Fifths clocks for my oldest son when he first went off to college, but I screwed up the order and got the one with a digital readout by mistake. \:\( (You have to be really good at theory to read THAT puppy! \:\)

Thanks for the feedback on my questions, Matt. I'll have to look more closely at the score when I get home to check for that held-over G.

Page 2 of 2 < 1 2

Moderator:  BB Player, casinitaly 
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
What's Hot!!
New Forums Location & New Piano World Site
Why Do You Play The Piano?
Posting Pictures on the Forums
on Piano World

Piano Classified Ads
Pierce Piano Atlas

Sweetwater Hiring Keyboard Player!
Sweetwater Hiring Keyboard Player
Grotrian Concert
for Pianoteq out now
A. Geyer Pianos
A. Geyer Pianos
Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.

Piano Wire Music Wire Piano Strings

Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
New Topics - Multiple Forums
The Minute Waltz
by luckiest_charm
04/29/17 05:12 AM
Three iOS Piano Comparisons
by Jonky Ponky
04/29/17 02:59 AM
Piano Career Academy Illinca Vartic thread
by Richrf
04/28/17 10:53 PM
Sampletekk Black 70% off
by TheodorN
04/28/17 06:03 PM
MIT Piano Drop
by WhoDwaldi
04/28/17 05:35 PM
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Forum Stats
87,549 Registered Members
44 Forums
179,273 Topics
2,620,364 Posts

Most users ever online: 15,252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |

copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission