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Hi Neal,
I'm glad you didn't like the L at Rick Jones because I drove out there and bought that piano yesterday! I played the C7 there too and it was very nice, but I preferred the L. I've been looking for an L for over a year and have played a lot of them, and this was the best I found. So I'm glad this worked out for both of us. Larry Larson

Luke's Dad,

Sorry, I obviously upset you. Neal1974 had asked for "all opinions" if you will read his original post. I gave him my opinion and take on the voicing of Yamahas and pianos in general saying that a technician can voice Yamahas or any piano. He should not be concerned with that.

He asked for all opinions. As a technician for 32 years, I know that most consumers are usually not going to get into pinblock concerns. My opinion is that it is an important subject that should be brought up. Surely you would agree that not all pianos are made equal when it comes to pinblocks.

But you choose to get upset and jump all over me.

I told Neal to not listen to a Yamaha salesman or a past Baldwin employee as in the both of us. That he should consider asking other technicians for their take on Baldwin vs. pinblocks.

I consider myself a consumer advocate having 32 years in the piano technical field and 13 years in piano manufacturing. Neal1974 asked for help and I gave my 2 cents worth.

I am not a Baldwin employee. You are a Yamaha salsperson. It shows.

Oh I may get blasted for this, but I actually preferred the Yamaha over even a Steinway of similar size. For the "Big" sound and price, I don't think I could find better.

I should have said "Big" sound and "Very Reasonable Price For the Sound I'm looking for.."

Neal, one thing is for sure, it's important to go slow and don't get any piano until you are sure you find one that right for you. As I looked at your original post, the issues are powerful sound and concerns about brightness developing over time. No tech can tweak a piano to make it more powerful, that's a matter of size and scale design. However, quite a bit can be done about tone, including reducing brightness. Any pianos hammers will harden over time, and that usually results in some degree of brightening of tone. If you like the warm tone of Baldwins but want more power than the L has, then I'd say definitely check out the Baldwin D in the PianoMart ad. At least from the ad it sounds like a good piano. The bigger Baldwin grands, SF and SD (later version of the D) do have quite a bit more power than the L while retaining the rich tone of the L. But it's sounding like you just prefer the C7. If so, go for it, and don't worry about it getting too bright, a good tech can do some voicing to get it where you like it. Larry

Don't worry about it... your opinion and preference expressed here are perfectly valid.

Congratulations, Larry, on your new L. I envy you that piano.

Neal, from what I've seen I wouldn't worry too much about the C7 becoming too bright. The larger Yamahas don't seem to be nearly as bright as their smaller brethren. I think Yamaha's reputation for overly bright pianos is based on the smaller grands and uprights which, in my opinion at least, tend to start out very bright and become objectionably bright as they mature. With a piano the size of a C7, they don't have to make it bright to give you a powerful sound like they do with the smaller pianos. If you like the C7, I say go for it. The seller of the Baldwin D in the ad claims the piano has been well cared for and tuned and adjusted every 3 years. This may indicate the opposite of well cared for in my opinion. At the very least it will be necessary to have it checked thoroughly by an independent tech.

Barry - I wouldn't bother with "Luke's Dad" - he's making a fool of himself (and Luke) in this thread. You offered VERY good advice (as the topic is Yamaha vs. Baldwin, a pinblock discussion is perfectly important and along the lines of what I've always heard as well) and he seems to be curiously defensive.

Neal- why didn't you select a new german grey market over the used Yamaha, looks like more for the money to me.

lambo, I don't necessarily think that the pinblock topic is so germaine to the discussion. The life expectancy of bass strings is about 25 years plus or minus depending on a few factors. At that time it would be expected that the piano would be restrung. IF it hasn't been restrung previously it can be restrung to the original block at least one time and sometimes two, assuming that the pinblock is physically intact and has not been "treated" chemically to help the pins to hold. For myself, I generally install a new pinblock with few exceptions. Baldwin often touts its pinblock and that is marketing. There are a few makers of pinblocks and pinblock material. I have tried them all and really find not a whole lot of difference between them. Many older pianos that I have rebuilt were in good tune with tight pins in a 3 or 4 ply block. The Japanese pianos do not seem to have any pinblock issues as regards longevity. Sometimes, however, duplicating them can be interesting owing to some interesting designs 50 years ago. Both instruments are quite durable, so it really comes down to what piano lights you up?

Comparing either an SF or SD Baldwin to the C7 is not really a fair comparison though. The SF Baldwin is to my ear one of the premiere 7' instruments and of course any concert grand is better than anything under that size with few exceptions with little regard to manufacturer. That being said, I played two concert-grands side by side around 18 years ago. One was a Samick, the other was an Estonia. Both were junk by any other name, and I would not have taken either as a gift.

ASOP, specifically what kind of new "German" fare is available in a 7' size competing with used prices on C7's?

If one piano's pinblock has twice the life expectancy of another, and the cost of replacement is large, the issue is relevant. Some people may not agree but they can move on to the next thing in their life without concern and that's the beauty of "random access" forums like this -- take what you need, leave the rest.

"That being said, I played two concert-grands side by side around 18 years ago. One was a Samick, the other was an Estonia. Both were junk by any other name, and I would not have taken either as a gift."

WOW Pels that's a strong statement! Surely both brands have improved since you sampled them.(?)

Lambo, if the life expectancy of the pinblock is twice as long as the owner of the instrument it is a moot point. I used my recently rebuilt Weber as an example. The original block had 1/0 pins and had NO loose pins. It lasted 100 years. I re-pinned that block. If it lasts another 100 years, it far outlives me. I am 52.

Vince, if either piano has improved since then, I say great. Estonia has become the darling of PW. Everyone cannot be wrong. It is academic to me. We have had a bit of a shakeup in the Houston area with the local piano stores in recent years and do not have quite the same sample available that we did 20 years ago. I was offered a Samick 9 footer recently for around $12K in supposed "excellent condition". I tried to get one of my college buddies to buy it, but his take was the same as mine. He had played it 20 years ago and it was junk, so why would he take a chance. They may have improved, but they shot themselves in the foot by cranking out such junk a few years back. Part of this may be generational. The folks buying new now may be considerably younger. Most folks my age that majored in music back in the 70's have already purchased their dream pianos by now. We were jaded by what we played in college and also what we played when we descended on local piano stores way back when. In undergrad we were a mostly Steinway school. We also had a brand new C7 that was universally despised. In grad school we had Bosies, Steinways and some Yamahas. I preferred Steinways from my college sampling, and still do. I owned an M that was a really fine instrument, but when I got off into the 9' esoterica, I found that most 9 footers are wonderful in their own way regardless of brand, and own a few non-Steinway 9 footers. Hmmm.. maybe I will start a new topic.

lambo, first, may I ask if you are a technician or what your backround is? It helps add context to your posts, and if you are a technician or a dealer, it is one of the rules of the forum
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/9462.html .

I've listed my affiliation, and in my post, you'll find that my company was also a Baldwin dealer as well. I have great respect and admiration for the Baldwin Artist Grands. After fifteen years in the industry, I have never heard anything to indicate that over time the Yamaha pinblocks need replacing any more than any other major brands as they get older. Sure, I've heard of cases where they have needed repinned, just as I have for Baldwin, Steinway, Mason, etc... And yes, I've heard of cases where the pinblocks have needed replaced, again, just as I have for everybody else, as well. In the vast majority of these cases, it's always been necessitated by water damage, fire, poor maintenance, etc... Which will affect any piano poorly, and require replacement of parts and perhaps complete rebuilding. If you can supply evidence, true evidence, that over 40-50 years the Yamaha pinblocks deteriorate and need replacement much more than Baldwin's with both pianos being under similar conditions, then I would love to hear it. Of course, then it would raise questions as t why thirty to forty year old Yamaha pianos are much more prevalent in the used market, and why they also usually command a higher price than an equivalent sized and aged Baldwin.

It seems to me that Neal has done alot of research and longevity of the pinblock and tuning stability were issues that he didn't have for either instrument. His concerns were power and the brightness of Yamaha tone over time. Rather than address these issues, a straw argument was made regarding pinblocks. Again, this had nothing to do with the issue at hand. I just wished to get past (imo) non issue, and get back to Neal's concerns. If that makes me a fool, so be it.

I own a 1983 Baldwin L bought new. I chose it because I found the extra string length over the Steinway L to be richer in sound, and it was more competitive priced than Steinway. (I had been a previous Steinway M owner.) I didn't look at Mason & Hamlin at the time, as they did not offer a 6'3" piano then. Nor did Falcone (now defunct). I did compare to the Yamahas though--and didn't like them as much. I've tested Yamaha's since then and still feel the same way about them. What I do like about Yamaha is the very even action and the key surfaces. Things I dislike are the short tone decay, the woody bass, the tenor with little character, and the somewhat brittle treble. Baldwin gives you you what I would call a profound bass, a nasal tenor and a treble with incredible clarity. And somehow the Baldwin keyboard registers blend so well together. Please understand, I'm not out to knock Yamaha, as many people like them. They make very good instruments. It's just that I like Baldwin better. A last note: I don't think the Yamaha C7 to Baldwin L1 is the appropriate comparison, although I realize those are the choices at that particular dealer. The Baldwin SF10 (7') would certainly be the closer competitor to the C7.

I have played and tested the C7 to many other brands including the Steinway. The combination of price value, design, look, artistry and the sound of C7 7'-11" will beat the rest seriously!
I'm trying to get it as soon as I save enough money now. This is just my own opinion.

7'6"

7'4" till 1985 ish Hey this piano is shrinking by each and every post. By tommorow it will be the same size as your C2.

When more people are trying to sell, it means that they aren't keeping them. Think about it.

Does anyone have opinions or advice regarding the quality of a Baldwin L1 built in the 1930s?