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Re: Question for adult beginners
#1042239 11/19/08 09:55 AM
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Originally posted by MS Hersh:
Hi All-
I was wondering how adult beginners (those who had zero lessons as kids) feel when listening/seeing amazing pianists?
I have that double CD of Glenn Gould playing the Goldberg. Amazing. I listen to it often. And I know I will never get to that level.

But I find it encouraging rather than discouraging. True, he has many times my talent, but he also plays music many times as hard as I want to.

If he can play THAT stuff, then I can learn to play the stuff I want to. My level of difficulty is trivial compared to his, I know I can get there. One bite at a time.


gotta go practice
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Re: Question for adult beginners
#1042240 11/19/08 10:51 AM
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Originally posted by TimR:
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Originally posted by Danny Niklas:
[QB] This is of course a myth. There's no physiological reason for a metabolism change at age 25. In fact the lean body mass metabolism is absolutely constant. It maintains the same metabolism from 17 to 80 year old.

Completely untrue of course.

There are quite a number of studies on weightlifting in 70 year olds. They do improve in strength, but only through neural recruitment.


No, you're completely wrong on this one.
You might have read that some of the strength gained in old age is due also to neutral adaptation but this doesn't mean muscle tissue doesn't hypertrophize and expands because it's absolutely not true. Every single study on old subjects and muscle hypertrophy show there's a real increase in muscle mass, which is not only proved by muscle biopsy, but also by DXA scanning or hydrostatic weighting.

http://biomed.gerontologyjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/51/6/M270

http://www.mdconsult.com/das/citati...8088715&sid=0/N/8088715/1.html?issn=

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/70/5/1912

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18294740

Older people have rather normal hormonal levels. Just because you're not into the phase that goes from puberty to old age it doesn't mean you have no anabolic hormones. Even babies and young children have testosterone circulating in their body and even they experience genuine muscle hypertrophy (increase in myofibers density) when muscle growth is stimulated through exercises.

Re: Question for adult beginners
#1042241 11/19/08 11:18 AM
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amount of protein a cell can hold is determined by hormone levels, and those have declined
Hold on a minute - since when do female hormones cause an increase in muscle mass? Are you talking about only men? And if you go that direction, wouldn't women begin to be able to increase muscle mass in old age since the hormonal balance will be different? wink

Re: Question for adult beginners
#1042242 11/19/08 12:25 PM
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Originally posted by keystring:
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amount of protein a cell can hold is determined by hormone levels, and those have declined
Hold on a minute - since when do female hormones cause an increase in muscle mass? Are you talking about only men? And if you go that direction, wouldn't women begin to be able to increase muscle mass in old age since the hormonal balance will be different? wink
I oversimplified, and I don't remember myself precisely which chemicals are involved. But yes, both men and women have the same general types of hormones with greatly different balances.

And if you've noticed, women (with some exceptions) do not exhibit hypertrophy the way many men do in response to weight training.

Not all men do, either. You have your mesomorphs and you have your "hardgainers." (a fairly recent term for males who gain muscle mass slowly or not at all in response to weight training. There are web sites and training regimens devoted to them.)

But basically all women are hardgainers and will not put on mass regardless of training. Fitness trainers always recommend men do moderate sets and reps with moderate to heavy weight to build mass, and females do very high numbers of repetitions and sets with very little weight because they want "just tone, avoid adding all that ugly muscle." Of course they are displaying their ignorance, women aren't going to add muscle like a man because they don't have the biological chemical ratios to produce it.


gotta go practice
Re: Question for adult beginners
#1042243 11/19/08 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by Danny Niklas:
Older people have rather normal hormonal levels. Just because you're not into the phase that goes from puberty to old age it doesn't mean you have no anabolic hormones. .
Garbage. I'm in the gym with fit young people and fit old people every week. (military) You can see the difference.

Old people have normal hormones? I suppose that's why my wife is still popping out babies? And none of our friends have gone through menopause?

Deny it all you want, age makes a difference.

We old geezers can still do amazing things, don't get me wrong. But we can't do the same amazing things a 25 year old can. And when we do, we pay for it! One of the biggest changes is how slow recovery has become.

Now, specific to piano, the changes are not terribly dramatic towards performance, especially if you laid a basis at an early age. Dexterity does not decline much. Learning is a bit more difficult, memorization very very much more difficult.

But the biggest handicap is if you don't have enough years left. Need ten years of 3 hours a day, and you're already 65? Possible, but the odds are beginning to pile up against you.


gotta go practice
Re: Question for adult beginners
#1042244 11/19/08 12:54 PM
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Experts says: To keep the mind sharp as we age, keep learning new things.

What better way to do that than learning to play the piano. smile


“The doubters said, "Man cannot fly," The doers said, "Maybe, but we'll try,"
And finally soared in the morning glow while non-believers watched from below.”
― Bruce Lee
Re: Question for adult beginners
#1042245 11/19/08 02:07 PM
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Originally posted by TimR:
[QUOTE]
But basically all women are hardgainers and will not put on mass regardless of training.
You're confusing hypertrophy and mass increase with big mass increase. When stimulated muscles grow no matter what. The muscles fibers are damaged by the stimulus and during the healing phase the fibers are increased making the muscles larger. It's a simple adaptation mechanism, the next time the same stimulus won't be able to produce such a profound damage.

Mass increase doesn't make you big, rugged and buff. In fact mass increase makes you first of all "toned", a bad word to describe how muscles shape the human body. A skinny fat person usually is a shapeless person.

There are differences between the physiques of competing bodybuilders and dancers and gymnasts and swimmers. But they're still all body types shaped by muscles. Slender lean bodies are still bodies with good developed muscles. Low levels of body fat per se don't shape the body. If you've undeveloped muscles and you reach a 9% of body fat (as a male) you will look flabby not lean.
This is also a typical problems of dieting girls.
They attempt to become lean by losing fat alone while fat loss per se promotes flabbiness, if not accompained by muscle gains as well.

To concretize these differences let's say for example that a female might gain 3 to 7 pounds of muscles from working with weights. A male going from unfit to fit and lean might gain 10 to 15 pounds of muscles. An unfit going to bodybuilder might gain 75 pounds of muscles.

Even a pound of muscle gain is nonetheless "increased muscle mass" and "muscular hypertrophy"
You don't need a 25 inches biceps to have experienced muscular growth. Sometimes mass gain is almost invisible outside (no bumps and ridges) but influences body composition and therefore changes the body appareance.

Puttin on a huge mass is not the only standard to define muscular growth. Even elementary school girls can "put on mass" by lifting weights. Even if it's just 0.5 pounds of extra muscular tissue, it still matches the definition of "mass gain".

Quote
Old people have normal hormones


There's a difference between too low and pathologically low and lower but normal. This is a big difference compared to the belief that old people have no circulating androgen/estrogen hormones.

For example a 2004 study on the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology claims "Although testosterone levels and muscle mass decline with age, many older men have serum testosterone level in the normal range"

Just because in young age your testosterone levels tend to be at their peak, it doesn't mean that lower than those levels is less "normal" or "not so functional".

Re: Question for adult beginners
#1042246 11/19/08 06:56 PM
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are you still with us MSH?

You started out depressed about your musical skills and now you can be depressed about old age - how about that!


"There are so many mornings that have not yet dawned." -- Rg Veda
Re: Question for adult beginners
#1042247 11/19/08 10:12 PM
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Meanwhile, back at the topic...

Great playing inspires me to practice. If I'm not feeling much like playing, I pull out some Keith Emerson or Joe Sample or Martha Argerich and play it on my way to and from work. I realize that I'll never be able to play like that, but it's not important. I don't have that kind of talent, and I certainly don't have that kind of time. Two of the gifts that maturity have given me are patience and self acceptance, two things sorely lacking in my youth.

MS Hersh, what brought you to music at this point in your life? Was is something you always wanted to do and couldn't because of some external reason, or is it maybe that this is the time that you are ready for it? My guess is that it is the latter.


Piano self teaching on and off from 2002-2008. Took piano instruction from Nov 2008- Feb 2011. Took guitar instruction Feb 2011-Jul 2013. Can't play either. Living, breathing proof some people aren't cut out to make music.
Re: Question for adult beginners
#1042248 11/20/08 05:21 AM
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I don't feel depressed listening to other's amazing performances. It's not a competition; just because they're awesome, doesn't make me any less awesome. I am just focused on improving my own level of playing, and if someone else is better than me, then kudos to them, but it doesn't change my goals or detract from my accomplishments. So there is nothing to be depressed about. Just keep playing and enjoy the music, and take pride in what you are able to do.

Re: Question for adult beginners
#1042249 11/20/08 05:53 AM
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I don´t really think of how or when i will attain this or that level or that or this piece. I've been on lessons for 2.5 months now. I know that if i put in the hours and the effort to make those hours productive, i'll get better. It' ll come to me. At what pace, who knows, maybe i'm good at it, or maybe i suck. That's not the point. At this point i don't really care what my realistic target level can be. I think in this learning process you need to think about the journey and not the destination.

Re: Question for adult beginners
#1042250 11/20/08 11:16 PM
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I started flying lessons at age 60. Got my Private rating at 62, Instrument at 63, and Commercial at 63. Now at 67 I am tackling the piano. As I always wanted to fly, I also have always wanted to play the piano.

I figure if I practice for 10 years, as the past responses have said, I will be 77 and able to play fairly well. Hopefully, I will then have another 10 years.

I will be very happy to accomplish the completion of Alfred’s All in one Level 3.

I look forward to being able to play well enough to warrant the purchase of a new baby grand.

Do you think my goals are too ambitious?


Best regards,
Ted

Yamaha CLP330

Alfred's Adult All-in-one Level 1
Re: Question for adult beginners
#1042251 11/25/08 08:04 AM
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I do wish I had started sooner (I started at 42 yo), however......there is no time like the present!! How true, how true. I think I am enjoying learning at this time in my life, and I wouldn't change that for the world. It's as if I have discovered a new layer of my person. And I do believe that is a life long discovery......all good. All good.


The most frustrating and exhilarating thing I have ever tried to do
Re: Question for adult beginners
#1042252 11/25/08 08:08 AM
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Oops, I posted in the wrong thread... confused

Re: Question for adult beginners
#1042253 11/25/08 11:49 AM
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A few quick responses:

I love listening to wonderful piano playing. If it gets me into self-judgment, well, I was probably headed there anyway. Climbing back out is a practice unto itself, and worth every step every time. Nothing really to do with the trigger (i.e. masterful piano playing).

With respect to Gyro's measure-a-day approach, I took months learning a piece that was WAY above my level, and another year (mostly) ironing it out (Joplin's The Entertainer). The reason I did, and the reason I think it was worth it, is it provides juice, every time I sit down at the piano -- it helps fend off the self-judgment and reminds me why I'm sitting there.

I think one comment about "putting in the time" mentioned the necessity of proper focus. It seems to me that relaxed enthusiasm, or something like that, with rapt attention and appreciation for one's own playing, and an effort to make MUSIC of everything you play (including scales or whatever other exercises), moves one along considerably faster. All of which is incompatible with negative self-judgment...

Keith


art is why i get up in the morning
but my definition ends there
it doesn't seem fair
that i'm living for something
i can't even define
ani difranco
Re: Question for adult beginners
#1042254 11/28/08 11:55 AM
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WOW!! I didn't expect so many comments, and I learned something
from each one. I SO appreciate all of you writing...I don't feel at all so alone now re being an older beginner. I have always had as my goal a piece called "Could it Be Magic" by Barry Manilow, and I just started with an "E-Z Book" which is as basic as you can get. I can't believe I taught myself the chords, and it doesn't sound that bad!!
Thanks again to everyone, and I hope you all had a wonderful and meaningful Thanksgiving. MS Hersh


MSH
Re: Question for adult beginners
#1042255 11/30/08 07:58 PM
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I used to get a bit sad when I would hear anyone famous or children who have been playing forever (!). But I have gotten to the point that by starting at 48 and continuing, I am enjoying this more and more!

It's a thrill for me to be able to even play two measures of a Bach piece! As I have stated in previous post, I love a challenge! And I'm not in competition with anyone, nor care to be.

Take care


[Linked Image]
Re: Question for adult beginners
#1042256 12/01/08 04:48 AM
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I'm only 24 and started last year, however I do regret not starting when I was a child. But my goal has never been to play piano like a professional player, and I know I wouldn't have liked practicing my life away. So I look at beautiful and hard pieces like an amateur artist looks at Mona Lisa : something unattainable. Yet, I'm still young so I have room for improvement if I don't stop playing, so maybe I'll be able to play beautiful, hard pieces in the future. There's just no pressure.


Nothing is impossible
Re: Question for adult beginners
#1042257 12/02/08 11:51 PM
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Music is a universal language of life.

Plus, it feels nice to introduce oneself into a wild world which great men have tamed.

Re: Question for adult beginners
#1042258 12/03/08 09:02 AM
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Listening to and seeing great pianists is motivating and encouraging. I have been doing yoga for 8 years and it is a slow process with a lot of repetition, so I expect my journey with learning the piano will be similar. I have been taking lessons for 3mos. now and actually have some talent for it.

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