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Had an interesting discussion with my teacher at my last lesson. I came in and played a fake book piece (Misty) that I had been working on for a couple of weeks. Got through it without a problem no wrong chords or notes and very fluid. I was happy to play it so well first thing in the lesson. My teacher was happy with it I thought, until he said something like what happened to the timing? I knew the tempo was a little inconsistant but I didn't think I was that noticable or that he would pick up on it and make an issue of it. WRONG....... I can't slide anything by this guy, tried it before, should have known better. Anyway he said the notes and chords are expected to be there, (OK I'll buy that) but the timing has to be right on perfect. The next thing he said was, if you listen to any professional pianist, even the guy at the local piano bar his timing will be right on and that's what separates the good players from the bad players.

Just wondering if anyone else has had this kind of conversation with their teacher. I have a very good relationship with my teacher and appreciate his honesty. Guess I'll have to count everything more seriously. :b:

Stupid question, here, but what does it mean to have timing that is "right on" when you're playing solo piano, particularly from a fake book? If chords and melody can be improvised (around the original structure, of course), can't timing be played with a bit?

same here! my teacher often catches me on timing or rhythm thing whenever i play for him. he seems to always know when my timing or rhythm is off, even just a fraction of a second delay on some notes. it makes me more aware of playing on beats and even transition between bars or phrases.

How do they know your timing is off? Maybe you just want to put a ritard here and there or wherever. I think music played "exact" without any pauses or resistence is mechanical. I like the way Steve Siu plays and want to play like him. He always has a resistence when it comes to his tempo. He speeds up, slows down, delays the beat etc., etc.,

MUSIC...PLAYED...LIKE...THAT...WITH...EXACT...TIMING...LACKS...CHARACTER...AND...EMOTION...JMO!

I can understanding too many counts per measure, but there are many times where I feel music needs to breath and just because the composer didn't allow it to, doesn't mean I have to play it that way, and quite frankly wont! It doesn't sound good to be so mechanical. I love a song that has wandering tempo. Listen to "Steve Siu" and you'll know what I mean. I love it. His music has so much emotion. When we speak we don't speak in "perfect rhythm!!! We talk louder, softer, faster, slower. We pause, we think we articulate! We should also compose our music this way so that we know it's ours!!! If we all learned to play the exact way with "perfect" timing/tempo what would separate us from them?

Oh...I get this aalllll the time. "The listener will know." He says.....Even music he hasn't heard before he instantly picks up on any missed beats etc. I'm not advanced enough to get away with calling anything interpretation... ..yet

Classical music is different than pop music. I've been gigging (not piano) since I was little, and I always play a mix of classical and pop music. My teacher always told me that the timing on popular music needs to be perfect. You need to count it out. It seems to me that in popular music you have melody, harmony, and rhythm. You can improvise chords on pop music because you can fool with the notes a little bit while keeping the same chord and the same harmony that was intended. You can't change the rhythm because it's written precisely; it's not possible to tweak it and keep the essence there, in the same way that you can't just go and change the melody of a pop song.

I don't do any pop music with my piano teacher, Frank, but he gets me on timing every time. I'll play something for him, and he'll pick out a measure where I was adding an 1/8 beat. Your inconsistant timing probably wasn't just slowing down the ending or picking it up at the chorus; you were probably adding/deleting beats in the measures. You should make sure your teacher tells you exactly where and how your timing was off, so that you can correct it. Timing is also important for popular music because it's not just piano; the music is intended as if you're accompanying a singer and playing with a guitar or other instrument.

Absolutely! If you're only going to be playing for yourself, then it's not that big an issue. But if your goal is to be able to play for other people, then yes, your timing NEEDS to be spot on.

Why? Because as you're playing, they are tapping their foot and singing. When you add an extra beat or accidentally remove a beat, it throws the listener off and they stop tapping and they stop humming or singing along. If your timing is off, then it's as if you're playing a different song from the one that they're familiar with. They may say that it sounds lovely, but it doesn't *connect* to them.

The best thing you can do is to focus on this bug comletely. Start recording your playing and then while you're listening to it, (away from the keyboard), sing along with the recording and tap your foot to it. Try and figure out where and why your timing is going off the track. If you can't hear it, then get someone else to listen to it and point out the spots. If all else fails, take the recording to your teacher and get them to point out the spots where the timing goes off.

Yes, timing can be "played with". But it has to be consistent. You can slow down a phrase or even gradually slow a phrase down to a complete stop. But you can't be adding or removing beats, you can't be changing from 3/4 time to 4/4 time and then back again, and you can't slow down one note (like when you're looking for the right note), expecting your listener to not notice.

A good person to talk to about it is Seaside Lee. He's been killing himself over the last month, trying to put a wooden stake through his timing issues.

So now's the time to get it straight!

I agree; that's why I asked about what "timing" meant in this context. Adding or removing whole beats or changing time signatures (unless they're in the music) aren't really what I think of as timing--those are mistakes. For example, playing dotted-eighth/sixteenth like the first and last beats in a triplet pattern is playing with timing and, in many instances, can be perfectly acceptable. It changes the feel (in this instance, to a swing feel), and can be a new or interesting take on a piece.

There's timing and there's timing... Sure, you can play with the timing of any piece to the extent that you stretch or compress, speed up a bit here, slow it out there, ritard, etc, but it all has to be within the context of the original timing of the piece. For example, I am working on a short dance-type piece now that is in 4/4, but the trouble I am having is that I play the first few measures with more of a 3/4 feel and that throws the whole context of the piece off. Now, I can see a few spots in the thing where I may want to play with a ritard or add a bit of speed here and there, after I fix my timing issues. And I think that's what Frank's teacher is probably picking up on- not so much that he is putting in his own interpretation and bending the song a bit, but there must be spots where he is losing the context because of off timing. (If any of that makes any sort of sense.....)

Alright. I can buy that.

Think about the poor souls trying to dance to your creation. They can't anticipate your rubatos and ritards.

Let's face it, we speed up when it's easy and slow down when we need to search our memory banks.

In my experience, there is nothing more humbling than trying to play a piece that you THINK you have down perfectly to the metronome. When I do so I immediately realize just how off my timing really is. I very rarely can play a piece all the way through and stay on track with the metronome. [My cure for that problem: Don't even try! :p ] An even more humbling experience is to record yourself. I hear very noticeable hesitations etc. on my recordings that I don't perceive while I'm playing, probably because such hesitations occur when I'm engaged in tricky fingering or trying to hit a big stretch in a chord that takes up my concentration. But the Red Dot Does Not Lie.

Thanks all, great responses. Yes timing can be played with but the point my teacher keeps making is that you have to be able to count accurately first, then make it your own but still with a close watch on the rhythm. I told him we were having "an artistic difference", he let me know I wasn't an artist by any streach, so play it by the numbers and he would let me know when I'm allowed to be an artist. He's a real joker........problem is he's usually right.

IrishMac said:

"I think that's what Frank's teacher is probably picking up on- not so much that he is putting in his own interpretation and bending the song a bit, but there must be spots where he is losing the context because of off timing. (If any of that makes any sort of sense.....)"

That's exactly right in my case. A couple of little spots of off timing messes up the whole thing.

My lesson was last Thurs. and I think I've got the trouble spots fixed.......I hope. I'll see next week.

My teach has told me the same...am working on Over The Rainbow and I was "doing" what I thought sounded good concerning timing...WRONG!!! He pointed out that when someone requests to hear that song, they ALREADY have a precieved version in THEIR head as to how it's suppose to sound, that they are requesting to hear that song, played as it is in the movie, that's why they requested it!!! So play it that way for the main part, you can deviate the beginning, the end...but DON'T MESS WITH THE MELODY!!!
Also, people may want to DANCE to it...they need that timing!
My response...Yes Sir,

aaaaaaaaaaaaargh timing!!!

yup timing is sooo important as I have been finding...you can speed up you can slow down of course but if a piece is in 3/4 then you must keep it at a beat of 3/4 all the way through, slipping into 4/4, 5/4 etc etc is now officially known as "Seaside_Lee Affliction #2" and it is a douzie to put right let me tell ya.

Listen to any professionally recorded music...CD's, on the radio, records etc and they will all have a steady repetitive beat (it is the back bone of all music)...yup even an orchestra has a conductor directing the beat.


theres just no getting away from it...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargghhhh!!!

Quote:

"You can slow down a phrase or even gradually slow a phrase down to a complete stop. But you can't be adding or removing beats, you can't be changing from 3/4 time to 4/4 time and then back again, and you can't slow down one note (like when you're looking for the right note), expecting your listener to not notice"

You definately can switch from 3/4 to 2/4 or 4/4 etc., etc., Look at some new age music it goes this way. So does some pop and some Andrea Bocelli stuff. I notice this a lot in the Yanni Music and The Andrea Bocelli stuff. You can say their music has a lot of emotion. As far as pop goes, if you want to play it just as people would sing it then play it that way, but if you want to change up the , etc., etc., then what's wrong with that?

"DON'T MESS WITH THE MElODY"!! What??? who cares? I like music that the melody goes out and comes back in, where you really never get the entire song as it was written. I guess I really like unpredictable music. I really can't stand predictable music. If I wanted to dance or whatever, yes I would want it predictable, but guess what??? No one's dancing to my music and I don't want them to!

YES MESS WITH THE MELODY! Make it your own! Change it up, make it slow/fast/med 3/4 to 2/4 back to 4/4! Don't let the audience predict what song that really is!

I can't stand movies that are predictable and there's a time for predictable music, but even though sometimes I play it as it's written, I don't enjoy it as much as when I hear someone qualified that plays a melody in abstract.

Find the parameters of how far you can go, although it's all subjective, and then do what you want with the music. Yes there are things you can do that just sound stupid, but there are ton of things you can do with the melody to make it unpredictable.

I play for me. If someone wants to hear me great, but it's for my enjoyment. I don't want to play melody "as it's written" so someone can hum, sing or dance to it, I want to play it the way I hear it in my crazy mind! However...if I ask for money to play, then YES, play it how most people hear it, "as it's written" boring...

That's just me

Piano Gal, I think I love you....but I want to know for sure......

(why are 60s and 70s songs stuck in my head? I have not posted in weeks without quoting some song.....does that mean I have reached max capacity in my little brain that I must plagerize basic thought????......)

Well said, but I also have timing issues that are not creative, and I think that's the difference...you must know how to do it before you can "create" something new....

Nice post....

I know what you are saying Piano Gal

But once you can sense timing exactly you can then bend it and play with it....but, you have to get the timing on automatic first.

Its important but, once you get it internalized (something which I am only just starting to conquer (at last... phew!!) and it has been blood sweat and tears for over a year now, with this affliction no kidding ) you'll know and trust me your playing for *YOU* will take on a whole new meaning of fun

Once you've got rhythm things change for the better , its early days yet but, I am starting to feel the difference

regards


Lee

Piano Gal-

To a great extent, I agree with you. If everyone played every song the same, it would be boring, indeed. But, at the same time, you cannot hope to effectively change something if you don't have a good, solid base to work from. If you can't solidly count a piece in 4/4 or 3/4 or whatever, then you can't change from one to the other within a piece and make it correct. And I think that's what many of our teachers are trying to get us beginners to do- get that solid foundation of counting and tempo ingrained in our heads so that we can, at some point, "mess with" some of this stuff, and still have it be musical and correct.

yes...yes...YES!!!

Once you can always play in time you have options to work in and around that timing to create a different feel, a unique sound if you want to...but, ya gots to play in time first.

My teacher tells me almost every gosh darned day "music is melody, harmony and rhythm...and to play well you have to have all 3"


regards


Lee


yes exactly Mak