Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Steinway D versus Yamaha CFIIIS

So Adrian
- flip a coin.

I am surprised to hear the CFIII is substantially less money in the UK. Here in New York when I was shopping the Yamaha was a few thousand more than the S&S. This does not take into account that the Yamaha price probably could have been negotiated while the S&S price could not.

I also noticed that a few years ago. I believe the CFIIIS was roughly $125K...can anyone tell us the current list price?

$149,395 for the polished ebony
$151,195 for the satin ebony

List prices are of course irrelevant. A couple of years ago, when I first looked at CFIIIS, the UK list price was roughly about £70,000 yet the pianos were advertised by Yamaha dealers on the internet for around £40,000. I think the cheapest I saw on the internet was £37,000. Used ones less than five years old were selling in the £20k's.

Internet prices have disappeared with Yamaha's price support policy, but the discounts from these prices remain.

I would be astonished if anyone clued up paid remotely close to list for a Yamaha.

Perhaps the US position is different. The very weak dollar obviously has a major role for imports.

In theory maybe. But at some point there will be actual pianos to select or reject, and those pianos may have unique characteristics that will influence the outcome of the model D vs. CFIIIs debate. Try moving this thing along to the selection process without ruling out either maker and see what happens. Othewise, you may be unhappy when the actual piano is selected.

I agree Steve, but I have to consider the practicalities of doing as you suggest. The reason I made the remark that you quoted is that usage is a factor: much of the time the piano is used as an accompanying instrument, either to voices, as part of an ensemble or both. In such cases the mix tends to obscure the sound. However, at other times it is used for solo recitals and that is more challenging.

Things have moved on slightly this morning.

The Committee meeting is at 2 pm and it is now 1 pm.

I need to get the decision made. One of my colleagues has approached dealers this week, at my behest, with a view to a side by side comparison and one of the brands has refused. Their counter offer is that if we pick their piano we can change it for another piano from the same company if voicing does not deliver what we want. I am unimpressed but we will see what other members think.

The other company has no problem with a side by side comparison. They have also said that we can take their piano on approval for a short period, allow it to settle, tune and voice it, and if we don't like it we can send it back. Our exposure is a share of the transport costs if we return it.

We have final quotes with both brands knowing that price is a factor. We also have, at the last minute, an interesting import option for a lightly used almost two year old instrument that comes recommended from someone credible.

The Chairwoman - who I though was computer illiterate (sorry Amanda) advises me that she was flattered by my assessment of her being a grade 5 player as she believes she only passed grade 2 and that was, shall we say, a while ago.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to our evaluation process.

Kind regards

Adrian

OK, I'm really curious which brand said no to the side-by-side....

Adrian,

It sounds to me like the reluctant dealer is really objecting to any trial period absent a commitment to buy. Maybe you should try talking short-term rental with option to buy instead.

Howard

Likewise! As a Yamaha owner I am predisposed to believe that Yamaha was the company who would allow a side by side. Steinway being the "tow the line" sort of company with their prices leads me to believe that they are the nay sayers.

But - ???

Can't wait to hear the rest of this story.

Mike

My thought on the live trial of each type of instrument was that each instrument gets a month of its own in the hall. The side by side comparison may be too difficult to arrange because to do it properly each instrument would have to take turns in the same location with the same artistic circumstances. I don't think going first or second would give an instrument any particular advantage as long as they each get a month with chamber, vocal, solo or whatever type of concerts would likely be programmed.

.

I have to agree Dave, I played a number of CF3's at the Yamaha artist center in NYC and while they are very nice they are not as good as a good D. I will say their actions are very good. In addition I never had any trouble at all with my C3 that I owned for over 20 years. In fact the tuner/tech who inspected for the buyer thought I never used it, it stood up so well. It was heavily used. Still its the sound of my D that keeps me at the keyboard for so many more hours.

I agree too. I am a huge Yamaha fan - I play several C3s in various gigs, there are several Yamahas at work, and for just over a year I have owned and loved a C7 - but I have begun to think (maybe realise) that nothing beats a Steinway [Hamburg] D. IMO there is a magic which I cannot easily describe.

A few weeks ago I again played a CFIIIS in the wonderful Yamaha showroom in Chappell of Bond Street. Then within half an hour I played two or three Steinway Ds at Steinway Hall. To my mind there was really no comparison and, in fact, the CFIIIS seemed a little boring by comparison. Whether the Steinway is worth the extra money, given the start and original context of this thread, is another matter.

Apologies for absence of posts on this. In bed with flu. Not feeling internet friendly.

Get well soon.

AJB, you're not in a particularly enviable position in this debacle! Personally, I wouldn't even try to comment or add to the question at hand.

The only thing I can say is that in my many travels to places of manufacture of fine pianos in Europe/Germany, I have had the chance to play a good number of 9' concert grands on many occasions.

Some of them have left me in sheer awe with the indelible impressions that the finest there is can often be found in places least suspected.

If these visits would have been reduced to only 2 places - so would have been my impressions and, i.e. 'choices' or 'possibilities' in a large and very interesting world out there.

Regretfully, you have to work within this rather *restricted* situation.

In a world of ever larger boundaries, widening perspectives and better understanding of the world all around us, this is particularly sad.

P.S. Hope you're feeling better soon!

Norbert

AJB,
　FYI, Shigeru Kawai EX is listpriced JPY15,000,000, while CFIIIS is listpriced JPY11,000,000(actually retailed at under JPY10,000,000) in Japan. I guess the SK EX is sold more expencively than the S&S D in Europe.

Thank you masaki. Whilst the list prices are interesting, the cold reality in Europe is that Kawai has as much chance of selling Shigerus for more than Steinways as a snowflake has of surviving in a hot oven.

In my limited experience Japanese made pianos have to undercut the likes of Steinway (hamburg) and Fazioli very substantially in order to have a hope of selling. This probably has more to do with history, brand perception and marketing, than any objective evaluation of the instruments.

A

This is what happened. I’m afraid it is a little bizarre.

Yamaha was ruled out. This was for reasons that I did not anticipate until the story unfolded after lunch on Friday. The legacy was from a wealthy widow of a former soldier. We learned that her husband had been imprisoned in Japan during WW2. The eldest son of the widow, who attended as a “friend” of the Committee, made a representation to members that he believed that his parents would prefer us not to purchase an instrument made in Japan. This wish has no binding effect as it was never mentioned as a restriction in the legacy, but the Committee felt unanimously that his views should be respected.

He wondered if a suitable instrument could be purchased from an English manufacturer. He was advised that the piano industry in this country is largely defunct. Leaving aside American imports of brands such as Mason & Hamlin (not available here), the best instruments came from Germany, Austria and Italy. You can see where I am going with this can’t you?

There was rather more debate about this aspect than anything to do with the pianos themselves. I am aware that the Chairwoman may well read this, but the fact is for me it was rather like spending a few hours in a parallel universe. It was all well before my time, though I respect the emotions involved.

So, to the decision. This took about 5 minutes…..

As a result of the posting on this forum, a dealer in Switzerland who is known to me (I used to live there for a while) contacted us with details of a piano from a recently deceased person. The piano is being disposed of by the executors of the estate. It is only 20 months old. No one on the committee has either seen it or played it. However, the dealer has a good reputation and is well known to a music conservatory in Switzerland that I have maintained in contact with. This Hamburg D is stated to be in excellent condition and we have no reason to disbelieve this. The Swiss tend to be very straightforward about such things.

In a short telephone call with the Executor, we agreed to buy this piano. The dealer contact will receive a small commission. It really is small and I know he is doing us a favour as a decent guy: it is in effect a charity deal. He will warrant the condition etc and we are assured the piano remains guaranteed by the Hamburg factory. He will arrange shipping at our cost. He has quoted a fixed price for this, though we have to wait a few weeks for a consolidated transport arrangement as that is much cheaper. After all this we save over £31,000 against Steinway list price in the UK and over £23,000 against the real price of a new piano. In other words it is not a million miles away from a new CFIIIS (which would still have been a bit cheaper).

The reasons that this option was chosen, despite some risk of buying a sight unseen instrument, were:

1 The Committee was very taken with the idea of using the funds saved, to buy another good piano for use in a student rehearsal and recital room. In fact a member has generously offered to pay for the room to be redecorated and another has equally generously offered to contribute some funds for tuition and maintenance.

2 The Committee believes that our ex Steinway UK technician will be able to tune and voice the piano to the satisfaction of visiting artists and the resident players. He has confirmed that he expects not to have an issue with this.

3 If the worst comes to the worst and the piano is not to our taste, then it should not be impossible to sell at close to what we paid for it. I doubt this will be the case though.

4 The father worked in the City after the war, trading stocks and shares and his son felt he would approve of this “deal” being in keeping with the spirit of the old man. I thought that was a pretty good recommendation really.

OK, I know this goes against all the usual principles of piano buying. But, I do think it will turn out to be a good outcome. After all, the instrument is not for one individual, but for many, so who is to say that the taste of one of us should prevail. And the saving plus the generous gifts is enough to buy a good quality new or newish 6ft or 7ft piano for student and intimate recital use. That was a major factor.

May I take this opportunity to thank Piano World members for their useful contribution to the lead up to this rather strange decision, and may I also apologise to those Committee members who may read this for my entirely unwarranted and unreasonably harsh descriptions of their hearing, musical perception and ability to tell one piano from another!

Kind regards

Adrian