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My situation is this.

I started piano 5 years ago, one month after oldest daughter, who is now 13.

Middle daughter started 4 years ago. She is now 10.5. Middle daughter is talented and has fast fingers.

I can play circles around them, even though they should be able to accomplish twice as much as me with half the effort. I don't practice enough, but I will put my head down and grind out a new piece. I don't just go through the motions like they do. I'm always looking for a challenge, whereas they are happy to do the minimum to get by.

And tonight, I *exploded.*

I did everything you're not supposed to do. I told the oldest one that she should not feel good about doing songs out of an early intermediate book for the past 2-3 years. I asked her how come she's not playing Chopin or Mozart. I scorned her practice efforts. I expressed disgust that the simple pieces she is now playing well in December are all she hopes to manage until the recital in February. As for middle daughter, I rebuffed her suggestion that I get her a pop piano teacher, telling her if she wants to learn the piano, then she has the perfect teacher for that.

All of this tongue lashing occurred in the van on the way to their lessons.

And it *worked!*

Oldest daughter is going to attempt a Christmas song that I can play but that her teacher thinks might be too challenging. Oldest daughter is also going to toss aside these easy pieces and take on new stuff for next week, and we'll play some CDs and try to find something she likes. Middle daughter came home from lesson and *practiced.*

Maybe they've been scared straight . . .

I think it's too early to tell if the "law" won...

We'll see how they do with the pieces. If they haven't bit off more than they can chew and they can make steady progress without getting too frustrated, then you're to be congratulated!

Keep in mind that children progress differently in different ways. At times it may not seem like any progress is being made (and you may be right) but it might not be time for progress right now... but there may be some point in time that the talent develops explosively. And maybe that time is now! Tough call... your passion seems greater than theirs.

I know! My passion *is* greater than theirs. I mean, I've given them explicit permission to quit, but they are treading water for some reason. Four and five years of lessons really is enough time to decide if you're in or you're out.

It's like having a kid on the track squad who won't run. Or a kid on the swim team who casually does the side-stroke because backstroke is too hard. It's *maddening!*

you might need a more inspiring teacher for the girls.

Cindy - What is wrong with a "Pop" teacher? Learning from a fake book is a whole separate piano skill one doesn't get from playing Mozart. Maybe that is what she is more interested in. Are you imposing *your* musical values on her? I don't know, just a thought. (I personally like learning pop stuff with my classical.)

I liked Apple's suggestion about trying a different teacher. I think kids need to want to perform for their teacher.

Couple of other thoughts:
1) They may not actually know if they want to play the piano. It may take them 20 years like it took me -- well wait a minute, I'm not sure I want to play...
2) Is the money you're spending on lessons what's causing you to evaluate whether or not they are serious?
3) Playing the piano is hard. (Am I allowed to say that?) I'm not sure that it is a legitimate excuse for not working diligently at it though. Is the piano "too hard?" For some, it seems there might not be enough talent or curiosity to keep them encouraged and wanting to work. But I still don't think that's enough to just allow a child to quit if they don't outright rebel and won't do it or if it's too much effort on the parent's part to make them play. I don't think I would give permission apriori allowing them to quit; there would have to be some sort of crisis or epiphany.
4) Maybe you're just really good yourself and you think they should be able to keep up?

Me? Really good? No, I'm not good at all. They have way more potential than I do.

I don't think a different teacher is the answer. They adore their teacher (she's my teacher too), which might be one reason they're so reluctant to throw in the towel. I think they want a teacher who will make it "fun" because they'd be playing Britney Spears tunes. Well, piano can be fun, and they must be enjoying it somewhat if they won't quit. But it is also hard work, there's no way around it, no matter who their teacher is.

It's this fundamental lack of desire to do the thing well that is driving me up a tree. If they were pulling a C average in school and were capable of more but just figured what they're doing is good enough for government work, that would bother me. Seeing them give the piano a lick and a promise day after day is kind of the same thing.

And yes, it is most definitely and without a shadow of a doubt the money. I'm happy to drive them wherever they'd like to go. But dang it, this is by far the single most expensive thing we've done. I'd guess my oldest has had almost $10,000 worth of piano lessons in her. Gads.

Man. All the whining about how they wanted to quit over the years and now they have the chance and they won't blank or get off the pot. Grrrrr.

Sorry, Jeffrey. I missed your post.

What's wrong is that I'm not seeing anything to suggest the pop thing would go better. They have the option of playing pop for their lessons now -- they just have to pick a piece and bring it to lesson.

I think I've reached that point where I'm just getting tired of the kids bouncing from thing to thing to thing. Karate. Soccer. Tennis. Skating. Basketball. Diving. Swimming. Piano. Cello. Clarinet. Drums (but I said no). Chorus.

Commit already, why doncha!

Cindy -- who isn't going to last another 5 years until the first goes to college

Cindy,

You are not alone.

Does your daughter know how much money (and time) you've invested in her lessons? Frequently parents hide financial aspects from their children. If she doesn't realize what resources you have committed to her, then she may look at the lessons as half lark and half chore.

When you had this heart to heart with your children did you ask them why they haven't quit yet?

If so, what was there response?

As for as them bouncing from one thing to another, of course that is perfectly normal for children...heck, some adults are still bouncing from one thing to another, trying to find their niche.

However, I do understand how it can be frustrating as a parent with limited resources to invest in everything.

I agree with Bob, this ample opportunity to reinforce an age old saying to your children "Money doesn't grow on trees".

If your children are "fully" aware of how hard you are trying so they can have the privilege of being exposed to these things, it can very well motivate them to try harder.

You and your children both excel by feeding off each other's effort and energy.

A lot of times children don't understand that things like that are a privilege and should be treated as such.

Not trying to be critical.

I'm not sure what your goals are for them.

Are you sure? Do they know? Do they agree? Up to a point you can force them, after that they have to buy in.

Are you possibly getting close to being a piano mom, like a pageant mom?

I require my kids to take piano lessons. I've told them music is a mandatory class like math, science, or English. They need to learn the basics at an early age, and they have to exhibit good work habits. They do not have to become good, they don't have to do it all their life, they don't have to have music become their hobby. (and they are authorized to negotiate changes. My older daughter was signed up for band but argued for piano instead.) I'm not saying these should be your goals for your kids, just using this as an example of how I've tried to be clear with them.

I'm 51, and my 14 year old and I started lessons with the same teacher 3 months ago. I practice significantly longer and more efficiently. On the whole I think she's making better progress though. If you're keeping up with your kids over 5 years I think you do have more than average talent and discipline.

PS.

I printed out the Four Practice Hints from Piano Spot and a couple of other articles for my daughter. When she's a little older I'll introduce her to Chang. Efficiency in practice is NOT natural and DOES make a difference. See also the excellent series of posts by Bernhard.

Hey now, wait a minute! What's wrong with drums?

(Warning: wisdom from the guy with no kids to follow)

Perhaps you need to give them the explicit option to "take a little break" rather than commit or no commit. Maybe a break where they can explore their own music and practice routines? Maybe they'll find that they like it, or don't and will commit to it one way or the other?

Well, this discussion was more me exploding than them talking. But the subject has come up before, and I get those vague teenage answers you tend to get.

"Why haven't you quit?"

"Because."

"Because what?"

"Because I kind of like it."

"How come you don't practice, then?"

"I do practice." OR "It's boring." OR "I dunno."

You know what the real reason is? I think it is two-fold. If they quit, there would be an outpouring of disapproval from relatives. My kids are the only ones of 10 grandkids who play an instrument, and their adult relatives love to see them play and think it's great that they've stuck with it. Plus, kid brother is now 7 and wants to start lessons. No way do they want to give up their lessons (and all the attention) while little bro is sidling into spotlight.

Regarding the pageant mom thing, I think I'm the opposite because I'd be OK if they quit. Frankly, I'm not sure how much more they can learn than they know already unless they are willing to focus and commit more. I'd love for them to find their passion, and I do have to wonder if all that time and money could be better spent finding their true passion rather than doing piano because they've always done piano.

Mark, does your daughter self-motivate with piano? What does that look like, exactly?

Maybe I'll let them look at the Quicken summary of Money Spent On Piano. That will be quite an eye-opener . . .

Cindy -- who finds it highly amusing that the girls think their dad should quit his lessons because he doesn't practice much -- BECAUSE HE WORKS ALL DAY AND IS EXHAUSTED WHEN HE GETS HOME!!!

That doesn't take a teacher, it takes about 3 chords and an outfit you wouldn't want them wearing.

By the way, like the spice girls, I think Britney's 15 minutes are over.

Cindy,

My wife and I tried to get my son involved in music at an early age but he showed no interest at all. I had played drums for many years and had given it up after college which left me without any musical outlet. I eventually picked up a keyboard and started learning on my own using a few of the standard adult piano method books. I did this in an effort to motivate my son to get involved as much as to bring music back into my life.

One day I caught my son humming a tune from his favourite video game (Zelda I think) and it sounded very simple so I went to the Internet and looked up the sheet music. It was a very easy piece to learn so it only took a couple of hours. When my son heard this, I saw the most remarkable transformation. He immediately joined me at the keyboard and wanted to learn this music. Next thing I knew he was trying to play by ear the music from some of his other games.

I couldn't get him off the keyboard and he was begging me to take him for lessons. That was five+ years ago, and now 4 electronic keyboards, a grand piano, and thousands of dollars in software (sequencers, notation, synthesizers, etc.), he plays non-stop, every chance he gets. His greatest joy comes from arranging his own original pieces. He is now composing original music involving different instruments and as a teenager has expressed a significant interest in making music his life. (Film and game scoring specifically). He has even acquired a love for classical music.

I guess my point is that music is about what moves you. I think you need to find out what moves your kids and meet them there. Ask them what their favourite music is (shouldn't be too hard as they are likely listening to the same thing over and over again), and then you should learn to play it. Hopefully they will be inspired by your new repertoire.

Maybe it will work as well for you as it did for me.

Best of luck,

Rodney

All interesting points as I am having the same problem with my daughter.

Cindy, I have to tell you, having spoken with you on the phone, that I had visions of you towering over your children, enraged, while they cowered in the corner trembling and thinking maybe practice is better that THIS....

I think what I am going to do is put together the figures on what we have spent on her lessons and ask her if she thinks she has tried hard enough to justify it.

Will post results.

Sounds to me that Cindy has gotten everything under control.

Short attention span is not good enough an excuse. I think Cindy was trying to get her kids to work for the things they loved.

Like I said, she got things under control. Good for you, Cindy .