Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Which is the best "Play-by-ear" course?

To add a note to what Elssa said,

Since Mike did a training session on 12 bar blues, boogie, Watkins Roll, shuffle, etc. in the Spring, that really opened a door for me, and I have really had some fun playing a good bit of that stuff along with the rest of it. You want to put a grin on a kid's face? That will do it! : )

As to structure, I can only recall one time since February that Mike posted a recording of an artist (Vince Gill in this case) and then told the entire group that he had to perform this in a few days, but if any of us would like to listen to it and post our version too, he would give us one extra day than him to learn it. You know what, a number of us did and I think we all learned from it.

By and large, I think he knows that the lack of structure moves the greatest number of us along the path in a shorter time, than if he said to learn this song and that by Friday, here's a recording.

There are professional performers at PM I would guess, but the biggest number of us probably just have a bunch of personal favorites that we want to play or play better, plus when friends, kids, grandkids, etc. are gathered around a piano and someone asks if we would play this one for them, even if it wasn't a favorite (but we knew the melody), we could play it for them. All without being tied to sheet music. By the way, I can't sight read, and I think Elssa's reading point is right on the money.

Bit late to this discussion, but just wanted to address Rosanna's concern:

IMHO, people make much more of a meal of this than is the case. I was in a very similar position to you, Rosanna, before I joined Piano Magic - 10 years or so of playing as a child, mostly classical, always with music. Came back to it years later.

Now, I understand how coming to PM with prior experience CAN get in the way of Mike's alternative approach, but it DOESN'T HAVE TO. In my experience, it's really not difficult to set your previous knowledge aside for a time and look at things in a new way, providing you're prepared to play simplified versions of tunes for a short time (and we're talking days or weeks, rather than months or years).

What no-one ever mentions is that prior experience can also be a distinct ADVANTAGE. Many of the folks who come into PM have never played at all, so they have to spend time learning to feel their way around a keyboard, discover what an octave stretch feels like, find out how to pedal etc. PM is not about technique, nor should it be. It's all about learning to play creatively. But you do still have to know which note is which!

Also, as you go on and your playing develops, it's natural you'll want to employ dynamic contrasts, bring out the melody or some other part of what you're playing etc.

If you can already play, all of that's already second nature. So don't be put off by this 'People with experience find it harder' line. It cuts both ways.

Nell.

P.S. Yes, I'm 'one of them' and so I'm ridiculously biased, but joining PM is one of the best things I've ever done in my life! I'm finally beginning to feel a teensy bit like a 'real musician'.

P.P.S. Oh, and PM doesn't stop you playing classical at the same time. I still pick up sheet music from time to time - old favourites, or a new film-score that's grabbed me. But it's the exception, rather than the rule these days. I'm having far too much fun playing what's inside me!

Hey Nell,

Very well said!!!

Nell has a way with words just like she has with a piano!!!

.....Pop : )

Hi there
(warning note: PM-lovers, before biting at me, read this through...)

Ok, I'll admit I *am* skeptical about PM. What makes me frown and worry is that I don't like it when someone tries to lull me into something with a thousand words, and PM's homepage has a zillion words... it always looks to me that someone is trying to confuse and deceive me...
And I'll add that I'm an old-school girl, at least as far as piano playing is concerned: I have taken classical lessons, some with stiff old teachers, others with more modern ones, but I'll say that I like it: I like playing the scales, I like fighting with Bach to put it hands-together... I just love it when I achieve the right tone and so on...
And I don't believe that there really is something magic, like a trick that will suddenly make me as good as Chopin.

BUT!
I think that the old (and quite boring, isn't it?) quarrel about music readers vs ear-players ends if you just fae something: playing the classics and playing by ear are simply different things. Despite the fact that you do them on the same instruments, they simply are different, so you can't really say which is better or worse.
I think that being able to hear a tune and do something nice with it on the keyboard is better than not knowing how to do it. (Piano Magic scores +1)
I think that being able to sight read is better than not being able to (Music reading scores +1)
I think that being able to play from a fake book or accompanying a singer is better than not being able to (here, nobody scores, AFAIK)
and so on...

But you see, when PM scores +1, it's not that music reading loses... it's just different.
I don't think you can play Bach or Schubert (my *beloved* composer) "like they're usually meant to be played" if you don't practice scales and can't sight read etc etc.

But then, looks like PM's goal is not to prepare classical players, am I right?
And after all, I think that Seaside Lee, before being able to play like that, must have devoted lots of hours (hundreds?) at playing... I don't think he subscribed to PM one day and then some "Magic" enabled him to play like that.
I think that there is always some "effort" involved... as there always is when you want to accomplish something. It's just that, if you like what you do, you just don't see it as an effort, but as your path to what you like, and you may also like the journey itself, isn't it?
Probably most people tend to think that "the classical way" is utterly boring... missing the fact that the ones that perservere on that... they actually like it!!!

Ok, all this being said... I've decided to give PM a try. It *is* a bunch of money. And I *still* don't like the thousands words on the homepage, it makes me sick and wanting to just close the browser. And I *still* don't like the fact that PM players then look down on chord theory and sight reading, as if it were a bad thing to know ow chords are formed or being able to sight read. But then, I don't even like "classical" players looking down on ear-players.
Both parties look to me like the old fox saying that the grape is not ripe, just because it can't reach it (you know the old fairly tale?). I mean, I think that most classical players are envious that they can't ear-play, and that most ear-players are envious that they can't read music.
Anyway, all the good talking about PM here has convinced me to give it a try.
I'll let you know how it goes and what I'll think about it, after having had a look at both sides.

(Still, the day I can play Schubert's impromptu will be the best day in my musical life... I swear!)

Nell, Thanks for you post. I was suspecting that having prior playing experience may have some advantage, and good to know it does! I read somewhere else that PMagic pretty much concentrate on the key of C (understandably easier with no black keys involved.) Is that true and do you (with more playing experience) find that limiting?

I also find what millaTK said right on point. We've seen enough posters on the piano forum who can play, but can't sight read. You can tell from their posts that many wish they could - and it takes effort from them to learn to sight read, as it'll take sight readers with prior lessons to learn to play by ear.

BTW MillaTK, I love Schubert also. Just came across the score for Impromptu 142-3. Even when I just sight read it thru first time (i.e. with many mistakes and not at straight tempo), I came to a variation that literally brought tears to my eyes. That was the first time playing classical did that to me. Unfortunately that piece is just too demanding for me right now, unless I put in 6 or 12 months (because I, unlike you, *don't* and never did like playing scales, arpeggios, etc. And Bach is my torturer. )

millaTK: I agree with your observations, except:

Piano Magic players look down on chord theory and sight reading? I don't know where you got that from...

First of all, Piano Magic is all about chord theory (just not necessarily the way you're used to it), and reading is not an issue one way or the other.

It's just the feeling I got reading here and there, and I've been reading a lot about the subject in the past few days... I may be wrong

Besides, I have a question: I know (and knew before subscribing) that PM plays mostly in the key of C. While I think this won't be an issue, does there come a time in the course where other keys are used?
I guess that once you get the principles in C, it's just a matter of transposing and practicing the black keys... but hey, that's what scales are for! (ok, ok, ok... don't kill me!!!! :p )


Rosanna: ahahh!!! 142 no.3 ... that is my *beast*, the one I ultimately *need* to play!!!!
But I need to get a better piano... I have a Clavinova bought 7 years ago, and it can only go from mezzo-forte to fortissimo... no way to get that water-like soft piano legato that you need to do in the right hand. But a better digital (I need to play with headphones most of the time) is only a few months away... maybe I'll have it in january or so...

milla TK,

Very well put. I too agree with everything you said except what Mahlzeit pointed out. I can't remember any PM players ever "looking down" on "other" methods. I don't recall anyone ever saying the playing classical is not good, sight reading is not good, etc...it's actually the opposite.

From what I've seen, we simply try to answer questions about PM and then defend PM when the need arises.

We'll see you in the forums!!


Nell,
Great post and great points!

milla TK,

Yes. Everything starts in C for obvious reasons, and yes, when you understand the principles in the key of C, you're encouraged to move to another key.

Troy, just curious when a PM-er advances onto playing in keys other than C, are key signatures taught in the program, with tips and pointers on how to transpose? (Transposing isn't necessarily easy.)

OT from the play-by-ear thread
MillaTK, I would be overjoyed *if* I can ever play 142-3 well - I don't care which keyboard! I can't blame the instrument BTW you know in case you haven't finalized your decision on which digital to buy, the digital keyboard sub-forum is full of help, information and opinions. Here is mine to start influencing you. When test-driving the digitals 3 months ago, I immediately found the Kawai touch superior, in particular the models with wooden keys (CE200, CA51/71/91, and perhaps MPII which is new.) Another superb pianist friend also found that to be true for her. I understand that many classically trained pianists like the Kawai touch.

Thank you! no, it's not finalized yet... I was thinking about Yamaha CLP-280, I tested it a couple of weeks ago and I liked the sound and anction, and the wooden keyboard felt really good. But I'll follow your advice and try some wooden keyboard Kawai too... see you in the digital forum!

Hi Rosanna,

I'm still on the key of C, but I'm pretty sure there is no mention of a "key signature" because we're not reading anything. Of course you'll have an understanding of "the scale" (wow! did I just say scale?) of the key you want to play.

Again, I'm still in the key of C, but my understanding is that if you full grasp the concepts in the key of C, moving to another key becomes very simple. Yes you still have to think about playing the correct notes for the key, but all of the concepts learned in the key of C translate....in other words, there isn't much to learn to move into a different key.

Make any sense?
I've been sick the last day and a half so I may not be making much sense...sorry.

Yes, like Troy says, you start out in C, because it's simpler to see what's going on when there are no black notes involved. But once you've grasped the prinicples, you're free to play in whatever key you choose.

No, I don't find it limiting. I've been with PM for 8 months now and still feel there's loads of exploring to be done in C. I don't feel constrained in any way, because no-one's forcing me to stick to that key.

One of the defining characteristics of PM is that you work within your comfort zone. You only move on as you feel ready to.

Occasionally, I play in other keys for the fun of it, or to test my own ability, or just for a change of sound. And I have to say - though I may be shot down for this - I think it's probably easier to begin transposing if you have previous piano experience. When you've spent years playing scales and arpeggios, you're very familiar with what all the basic major and minor chords look like in root position, so you don't have to learn all that.

But for the most part, I'm happy to work in C for now. One of the 'secrets' of PM is that the simplest things teach you the most!

Nell.

Thanks troy, you explain things clearly, as usual. I hope you are feeling better. It's just a bit hard to imagine how one would transpose without knowing key signatures well - just thinking out loud. Anyway I am getting ahead of the game.

Curious, Lee, do you play outside the key of C? (I am taking you to be an advanced student, of course.)

[Edit: Nell, thanks for the response. We posted right at the same time.]

My current feeling is that I won't start any new pieces and will complete the ones that I am learning now, may be til they are good enough to be recorded for the piano bar. Then I'll sign up for PMagic and give it a go. This will be after the new year, but you PM folks will know it when you see me sign in there! Meanwhile being left-brained and intellectual, you'll find me continuing to ask questions!

MillaTK, I sent you a private message so I don't continue to go off topic on this thread. Please check your PM.

I think the nicest thing about learning to play by ear is that you don't have to memorize everything anymore (I don't have a very good memory). I'm still playing my classical and jazz pieces, but now the chord movement/patterns make sense so that I don't need to memorize everything as I did before.

Hi Rosanna

I am really still only starting to move into other keys (although I'm sure I play something in the key of F on the London videos - please remember I basically new nothing much more than where middle C was when I started...so I started from ground zero and have asked a lot of questions to get where I am today - still a long ways to go yet!)...BTW I am often envious of the players who had a lot of knowledge before they joined because transposing seems easier if you have a great knowledge of the scales beforehand...I find I have to practice the scale of the new key for a few days to start to get my head around it. However I am finding that I don't mind doing the scale work because its what I want to learn and I need it to achieve it

Absolutely correct...its for people who want to play modern/popular songs

If you read my blog you will be able to hear exactly what I sounded like with my first recording...it was nowhere near as good as today (and remember I'm still learning)

But, you are quite correct just like everyone else I have played for hours on end (my problem is I don't have enough hours to play as much as I would like to. If I had I could be really good!! )

I have no idea where you get the idea that we look down on sight readers or people who play classical music. I have the greatest respect for anyone who can play the piano because I know only too well that they must have a love for it to put the hours in.

However playing Classical piano is in the main of no interest to me, learning to sight read however is something I will probably try to do someday. I can't say I am really that bothered at the moment either way if I do or I don't... I am having a blast as it is

Pianomagic uses one key so you can learn how music thinks in just that one key...once you see it that same thinking applies to every key...but, you have to discover it in the one key first...when you do...YOU'LL KICK YOURSELF!!!


ga'nite


Lee

Rosanna, just one more thought......

With PM, you're not actually TRANSPOSING, so much as PLAYING IN A DIFFERENT KEY. What I mean is that in order to transpose something, you have to be reading it from music - or know it from memory - in one key, and then be actively moving it into another key.

With PM, you don't need to keep one key in mind (or on the page) and do mental gymnastics to convert it into another........you simply play - BY EAR - in the key you want it in.

Do you understand the distinction?

That's one of the magic things about playing by ear!

Nell.

Well, duh! Yes, of course, Nell. I just got a big grin reading that. It's like a good joke on me. Just goes to show how having prior knowledge gets one into a groove, and things are actually a lot simpler! [still chuckling inside]

That's it.

No more.

I will sign up for PM today!

Thanks to Seaside, Matt, Bob Muir, and all you other magicians (read: cult members) for answering my issues.

Thanks to all you nonmagicians who have also raised questions.

See ya over there.

I'm expecting some very weird initiation ceremony where I have to learn a secret handshake, perhaps spill blood on a piano, and learn some kind of piano dances.

Thanks to all!

-Angelo

Great Angelojf. Post back to tell us how you survive the initiation. Or perhaps if you tell us, you'll have to kill us?
Best of luck and have fun over there.