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#1010770 - 02/04/08 10:06 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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tm3 Offline
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a fascinating thread! thanks to everyone, especially jazzwee, for putting this together.

i'm late to the party, and after reading the entire thread i feel kind of overwhelmed. jazzwee, what is your prescription for attacking this, i.e. first learn AL with 1/7 shells, then start on soloing, or instead go to 1/7 and 1/3 then learn the rhythm, then soloing, etc.? it will seem more manageable taken in steps.

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#1010771 - 02/04/08 10:50 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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Jazzwee and AL Gang,


Quote

Sometimes I wonder if I can be understood guys. I'm explaining completely differently from how I learned this
We understand you perfectly. The best teachers are those who are able to sift through their learning and bring out the GEM. And that's what you are doing.

While I know the 1357 of chord tones and the downbeats and the step wise and half step movement, I am not aware of the different ways of doing the arps with the repeated notes. They do sound good w/o taking too much brain power.

Jazzwee, before I download the pdf version, I have the jazz improvisation for keybaord players (complete edition) by Dan Haerle -- do you recommend following this one?

Also have you seen this free jazzlesson on bebop improvisation.

http://www.jazzpianoonline.com/improvisationtheconcept.html

Rosa smile

#1010772 - 02/04/08 11:57 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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Swingin' Barb Offline
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Jazzwee - RE: Lesson 11.

After having fun with Chord Tones this morning, I went on to stepwise moves.

That B7b9 is drivng me crazy mad
I keep wanting to play C# rather than C. That C# has been ingrained into my fingers for a B7 and it is rebelling big time.

So - should I:
1. put the metronome to a very, very slow speed and make my fingers play that C natural
OR
2. Play the C#

Hey tm3 - welcome to the party! laugh


A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com
#1010773 - 02/04/08 12:14 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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Here is my recording back to Lesson 3 Style B with RH swing and LH Charleston (Hopefully getting closer)

http://www.box.net/shared/a00c6pzr4w


Rosa smile

Welcome TM3. No need to feel overwhelmed. I was a late comer too. Just reading the thread is overwhelming but once you follow from one lesson to another and hand in your midis, I found it so EZ to pick up. Before I knew it, I was onto solo. But I am still doing those early lessons alongside, like lesson 3 now.

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#1010774 - 02/04/08 12:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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Quote
Originally posted by tm3:
a fascinating thread! thanks to everyone, especially jazzwee, for putting this together.

i'm late to the party, and after reading the entire thread i feel kind of overwhelmed. jazzwee, what is your prescription for attacking this, i.e. first learn AL with 1/7 shells, then start on soloing, or instead go to 1/7 and 1/3 then learn the rhythm, then soloing, etc.? it will seem more manageable taken in steps.
Take it slow TM3. You're not that far behind. Most everyone started only a month ago. Lesson 1 is the place to start.

But soloing can begin immediately after. The rhythm is harder to figure out if it is new so you can always just add it in slowly. Nothing wrong with soloing without rhythm first.

Good luck tm3.


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#1010775 - 02/04/08 12:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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Quote
Originally posted by rosa2007:
Jazzwee and AL Gang,


Quote

Sometimes I wonder if I can be understood guys. I'm explaining completely differently from how I learned this
We understand you perfectly. The best teachers are those who are able to sift through their learning and bring out the GEM. And that's what you are doing.

While I know the 1357 of chord tones and the downbeats and the step wise and half step movement, I am not aware of the different ways of doing the arps with the repeated notes. They do sound good w/o taking too much brain power.

Jazzwee, before I download the pdf version, I have the jazz improvisation for keybaord players (complete edition) by Dan Haerle -- do you recommend following this one?

Also have you seen this free jazzlesson on bebop improvisation.

http://www.jazzpianoonline.com/improvisationtheconcept.html

Rosa smile
Forward Motion is a very specific explanation and is very unique. It can work with other books. It is not really beginner's level but I think everyone here can handle it.

For so little money it's excellent information.


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#1010776 - 02/04/08 12:31 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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Quote
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
Jazzwee - RE: Lesson 11.

After having fun with Chord Tones this morning, I went on to stepwise moves.

That B7b9 is drivng me crazy mad
I keep wanting to play C# rather than C. That C# has been ingrained into my fingers for a B7 and it is rebelling big time.

So - should I:
1. put the metronome to a very, very slow speed and make my fingers play that C natural
OR
2. Play the C#

Hey tm3 - welcome to the party! laugh
Hi Barb, AL aside why is there a C# in your B7b9? How do you actually voice a B7b9?

B7b9 is actually the same as a Cdim. So the notes are C Eb Gb A. So 7b9 chords = Dim chord a half step up.

A B7 doesn't have a C# either unless your specific memorized voicing uses it. That may be the issue is you're using memorized voicings. Something that would break as you use shells or 2+2 voicings discussed earlier.

It took awhile but now I'm able to see the intervals immediately and no longer rely on memorized voicings. And it came from using alternate voicings.

I haven't really discussed this yet but the scale for B7b9 is:

Half-Whole Diminished
B C D D# F F# G# A

For F#m7b5 it is:

Diminished Whole Tone
F# G# A B C D E


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#1010777 - 02/04/08 12:35 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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Quote
Originally posted by rosa2007:
Here is my recording back to Lesson 3 Style B with RH swing and LH Charleston (Hopefully getting closer)

http://www.box.net/shared/a00c6pzr4w


Rosa smile

You may need to slow it down with a metronome like Barb said earlier. You're playing 1, 2, 2.

Gotta count 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & when doing this wink

Good luck!


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#1010778 - 02/04/08 12:46 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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Swingin' Barb Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by jazzwee:
AL aside why is there a C# in your B7b9? [/QB]
The problem stemmed from doing lots of dominant scale practice for several months last year. I would fly through that B7 scale with my C#.

OKAY - slow that metronome and put in that b9.

Thank you for that great explanation regarding those diminished scales. smile


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#1010779 - 02/04/08 11:40 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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Apparently, I was counting 1 2 3 4 for my RH swing but that doesn't work too well for the LH because for LH I need to count 1+2+...etc. Now I know where the problem is.

Jazzwee for lesson 3A&3B, you said that for solo we will use the 3B style more. When will I find occasion to use the 3A style then?

I am interested in playing the cocktail style and you said we could arpeggiate the 3 notes slowly on the LH. (1, 7, 10 or 1, 5, 10). I can do 1 5 10 as the fingering is easier. Is it better to arpeggiate 1 7 10 to get the 7 in the LH?

What will be the rhythm of that LH arpeggiating?

Rosa smile

I've downloaded the pdf book. It is very interesting & good exposure to build up our skill. It also has audio sounds to go with it.

#1010780 - 02/05/08 12:33 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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Rosa, LH Arpeggiation in a solo piano style would be all on the downbeats and would be played Rubato. Whether to use 1 7 10 or 1 5 10 is up to your reach and also which note you're playing. Apparently you have long fingers as I can only do limited tenths (white notes only). So this is not something I do often.

If Ritincop is reading this perhaps he can give a better answer.

3A is 1/7-1/3 fingering for ii-V which is used in a later lesson on Comping (Lesson 9?). I you're playing a solo on the RH or doing arpeggiations, then the LH, would just stick to 1/7's as in 3B, because 3A needs help of the RH.


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#1010781 - 02/05/08 01:26 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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OK. I went back to the beginning pages and ploughed through the posts and could not find the answers to the following 2 questions:

1. To do the 1/7 and 1/3 shell on LH, is there a strict rule that 1/7 has to be the minor chord and the 1/3 shell has to be the V7 chord? Or we just feel our way through what is comfortable when we make the changes?

2. I remember reading somewhere Jazzwee talks about cocktail improvisation with an easy RH shape using 3 5 9 easily but I can't find what that handshape is.

Rosa

#1010782 - 02/05/08 01:47 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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1/7 to 1/3 is specifically a voice leading approach for ii-V chord progressions using Shell voicings. So is it a strict rule? No since there are alternatives but it is a popular motion using shells because it has less hand motion than a strict 1/7 at all times.

Solo piano using the 2+3 voicings (which are 2 on LH and 3 on RH), is where you'll find reference to 3 5 9 on the RH. These are comping chords. However they can be mixed in with solo piano.

In the Lesson on Rootless voicings, that is also used in Solo piano style by hitting a bass note, then the rootless voicing higher up (modern stride version).

Lately when I play solo piano, let's say of AL, I would mix the following styles within one tune:

1. Shell 1/7's, with the melody and soloing
2. Rootless Voicings with occasional bass (typically once every two measures on AL).
3. In between melody notes, I'd also do 2+3

The only style I personally don't do much anymore is walking bass in solo piano.

I don't do this much but as another approach over what's been mentioned, you could play the melody using 1 5 8 on the RH for each note. Ritincop is an expert on this sound and is used a lot Red Garland.


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#1010783 - 02/05/08 02:00 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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Let me expand on what I do when I play shell voicings for solo piano (i.e. what I'm referring to as #1 above.

I don't actually just play 1/7 on the LH and my RH has more than the melody or solo line.

I will make the LH play 1/5/7 or 1/3/7 (and you can mix 1/10 here too but due to strain, I don't use it a lot). So I have a fairly full sound on the LH. I might mix in arpeggiation or just straight chord playing of the shells.

On the RH, I want to make sure the 3rd is always voiced so it is often on the fingers 1 and 2 of my RH. If 3rd is already voiced and I have an extra finger I will typically play the 9th too, particularly with minor chords (so b3 and 9 on my 1st two fingers). I do a lot of this with the tune My Romance. Very jazzy effect because of the dissonant interval.

If I'm doing a line on the RH, you can sometimes squeeze in the extra chord tones during a quiet moment in the melody or solo for effect. So if I have not been playing the 3rd, I'd insert it in between. Often I will also withhold the inner voices on the LH and play only the root and the top note and then syncopate the middle voices in the middle. Hard to explain but it makes the tune sound like it's in 2/4 instead of 4/4 with the middle voices going in later in the measure.

This is not a lesson description so it is not well thought out but this is a little summary of the stuff I've learned to do.


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#1010784 - 02/05/08 02:06 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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Thanks jazzwee for your explanation. Telling me your thought process is as good as those well-thought out lessons. smile My direction is very clear now. I have not gone to rootless voicings yet but I want to try out cocktail improvisation because that is something I want to master. cool

Rosa

#1010785 - 02/05/08 02:16 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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Rosa, jazz improvisation in solo piano isn't really "cocktail" piano especially with all these sophisticated jazz voicings. Let's refer to it as jazz ballad playing. wink I play like this all the time and I love it because when you slow down the tempo, you can really work on sixteenth note runs. Something that doesn't get much play in medium swing.

As an exercise, we should all play solos in ballad tempo, with Rubato time to see if you get different ideas when you slow it down. Doing ballads well is actually quite challenging, which is why it is fun to do.


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#1010786 - 02/05/08 03:42 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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Can you guys believe that someone just blasted the rating on our thread and my own rating?

Did we bash anyone on this thread? Did we attack anyone? Or is it someone who just doesn't like jazz? Speak up whoever you are!

What a weasely thing to do. Here's a thread without a word of disagreement from anyone, it's purpose completely to help people and some childish person rates it down to make a point.

THERE'S NO POINT IF YOU DON'T SPEAK UP.


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#1010787 - 02/05/08 06:42 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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I am in complete shock here, jazzwee. I have been a member of ABF for 2 years and until this thread came about, I had posted a total of 14 times. Since I joined up with this thread a few weeks ago, my post count has jumped to 61, I am that excited.

This thread is THE BEST THING going on in ABF. You are doing a remarkable service for all of us who have always wanted to learn jazz, but never knew how to begin.

I agree, it was some childish person. And I thought this was a forum for adults.

BTW, How is a thread rated? I assumed it was strictly by the amount of daily traffic.

Jazzwee, you are the greatest! thumb thumb thumb thumb thumb


Quote
Originally posted by jazzwee:
some childish person rates it down to make a point.


A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com
#1010788 - 02/05/08 07:28 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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at the bottom of this page to the left you'll find a "Rate it!" drop-down menu.

#1010789 - 02/05/08 07:57 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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Thanks Chris.

To All - check out this KJ video:

http://www.pcplanets.com/videoyoutube-Keith-b-Jarrett-b-.KiWchoEo2Vw.shtml

I grinned ear to ear as I watched it - my heart started beating faster. Jarrett at his best. Such fun to watch and listen to. laugh


A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com
#1010790 - 02/05/08 08:53 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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Quote
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Let me expand on what I do when I play shell voicings for solo piano (i.e. what I'm referring to as #1 above.

I don't actually just play 1/7 on the LH and my RH has more than the melody or solo line.

I will make the LH play 1/5/7 or 1/3/7 (and you can mix 1/10 here too but due to strain, I don't use it a lot). So I have a fairly full sound on the LH. I might mix in arpeggiation or just straight chord playing of the shells.

On the RH, I want to make sure the 3rd is always voiced so it is often on the fingers 1 and 2 of my RH. If 3rd is already voiced and I have an extra finger I will typically play the 9th too, particularly with minor chords (so b3 and 9 on my 1st two fingers). I do a lot of this with the tune My Romance. Very jazzy effect because of the dissonant interval.

If I'm doing a line on the RH, you can sometimes squeeze in the extra chord tones during a quiet moment in the melody or solo for effect. So if I have not been playing the 3rd, I'd insert it in between. Often I will also withhold the inner voices on the LH and play only the root and the top note and then syncopate the middle voices in the middle. Hard to explain but it makes the tune sound like it's in 2/4 instead of 4/4 with the middle voices going in later in the measure.

This is not a lesson description so it is not well thought out but this is a little summary of the stuff I've learned to do.
i'd love to listen to some examples of these different approaches. do you have any on line?

#1010791 - 02/05/08 10:06 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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jazzwee - it's time for a reality check here. I have just recorded my charleston LH along with the AL melody. I know that one of these days (months, years!!!), I will need to add my LH while I solo.

On that note, am I on time with my LH? If so, I will continue to practice at 140 bpm. If I'm not on that solid as a rock time, I'll practice slowly once again.

I can’t yet put in any swingy type RH notes when I do this LH charleston. The best I could do was try to detach the RH quarter notes.

I'm not quite sure how I need to progress with my LH. I am assuming that the goal here is to get the charleston LH on auto pilot.

So, if I am on a solid LH time, should I now:

1. try to add some more swingy notes in the RH (deviate a bit from the written melody) while keeping a charleston LH going?

Or

2. just keep on doing charleston with the simple written RH.

http://www.box.net/shared/252k8xu04w


A Sudnow Method Fanatic
"Color tones, can't live without them"

To hear how I have progressed since 2006, check out: http://b.kane.home.mindspring.com
#1010792 - 02/05/08 10:58 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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Jeez, I'm over here toiling away trying to get my chord tones to land on downbeats and people are bashing our thread and our tireless leader. As my 8 year old daughter would say "What-evs". Best not to even dignify this stuff. Jazzwee, you get thumb thumb thumb thumb thumb from me too.

I've been working on the tips from lesson 11. It has been really tough. I made a few attempts at recording something last night, but they were too horrendous. Whenever I hit the record button, my playing always seems to rachet down a notch. I think I'm getting close. Maybe another night of practice.

Barb, your rhythm sounded pretty solid to me. Sounded to me like your &'s were falling really late in the beat which I think is what you want. Nice work.

#1010793 - 02/05/08 11:13 AM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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Thanks, deeluk. I'll have to wait for our rhythm expert, tho, to get the final word as to whether I'm rock solid.

Re: recording. I used to hate it with a passion. I decided to cure my recording phobia by recording often. I recorded all the time until it just didn't bother me any more.

Lesson 11 - yes, quite challenging. I'm looking forward to you posting something.


A Sudnow Method Fanatic
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#1010794 - 02/05/08 12:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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Someone rated me and this thread a 1. So obviously someone was unhappy with this thread. As you know, a thread was already started criticizing us because we don't use sheet music. I have no idea if the 'little child' that rated us is in the same camp or not but if someone out there is unhappy with what were doing here, then SPEAK UP LIKE AN ADULT.

I can tell you guys that the Jazz pros/teachers that have been visiting this thread has only good things to say. So I truly doubt any jazzer would do this. Maybe it's another dummy who's telling us that Keith Jarrett needs to improvise with sheet music.


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#1010795 - 02/05/08 12:25 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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Quote
Originally posted by Swingin' Barb:
jazzwee - it's time for a reality check here. I have just recorded my charleston LH along with the AL melody.

http://www.box.net/shared/252k8xu04w
That is SO GOOD Barb! thumb It's pretty rock solid to me. Amazing job.

For improvement now, I will now suggest to 'leave' that rock solid time and give it more of a groove. To do this, learn to relax the RH and drag it just ever so slightly behind the beat. Don't alter the LH. It's perfect. This is very advanced now. I wonder if you can even hear me do it on the combo melody. You'd have to listen carefully to detect it but after a while it is more of a relaxed feel.


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#1010796 - 02/05/08 12:38 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
jazzwee Offline
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jazzwee  Offline
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So. California
Quote
Originally posted by deeluk:
Whenever I hit the record button, my playing always seems to rachet down a notch.
You and me both laugh So the solution is always to master it at a higher level. It seems that we need that reserve to counteract the self-consciousness. To perform at 100%, you need to know the subject matter at 150%.

Just so you know Deeluk, this isn't easy to do. I don't know what makes you think you can do this in a couple of days laugh

Let me make a suggestion to make it easier. Don't worry about it so much but record to see HOW MANY times you land on a chord tone. Meaning ignore the few times that it didn't work out. Can you at least land on a chord on beat 1? You were doing that already on your first try because you were landing on the 3rd.

So from there use only one technique at a time (like stepwise movements, which is the easiest).

The hardest to synch are chord arpeggios unless you arrive at some pattern in advance (not a bad idea at first) so you hear how it sounds like. Work out a few different patterns.

Be patient.


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#1010797 - 02/05/08 12:51 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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Swingin' Barb Offline
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Swingin' Barb  Offline
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North Carolina
Thank you, jazzwee. I'll breath easy now.

I do detect that relaxed feel when you play. That's what I am after here. I love that sound and have noticed it while listening to the pros.

So, I'll play Charleston in my LH and try to play the RH as if I just had a few stiff drinks wink

Quick question on Lesson 11. Chord tones with long notes was not a problem for me. Doing it as mostly eighth notes for lesson 11, I notice that I sometimes anticipate the next measure and I play a note on the & of 4 that is a chord tone for the next measure, but, it is not a chord tone for the current measure.

Example:

First measure is Am7. I may play the D on the & of 4 (next measure is a D7.)

So, is this allowed in the first assignment of lesson 11 having to do with using Chord tones only?


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#1010798 - 02/05/08 01:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
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jazzwee Offline
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jazzwee  Offline
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Barb, typically when using the Bebop scale you play going up and down. When you reverse direction over the extra tone in the Bebop scale, that's when the synching happens.

The other approach that I practiced a lot myself is to repeat a note or execute a pattern that will synch me up a note. Here's a couple of examples (I'm not at a piano so hopefully it will be correct):


Example 1:
(Stepwise movements unless otherwise indicated...)

Am7

C B C D E D C (skip) E

D7
D C D E F# G A (skip) F#

GMaj7
G...


Example 2:

(Repeated Note Example)
Am7

C B C D E D C C

D7
D C D E F# G A A

GMaj7
G...


You see the problem I encountered when I initially did this was that my fingers automatically moved and it really wasn't connected to the tones I was hearing so this was a mechanical way to synch.

But after a year or so of practicing this, what happened is that I began to select notes based on their tone, and my fingers were just following. I was so glad when it happened because for moment there I doubted if I was musical. And for whatever reason, these moves that I practiced are no longer necessary. I think the tone bridging (to get to a target tone) based on working this out logically eliminated at least the effect of fingers getting in the way.

I was not taught this BTW, this stuff I just developed on my own.


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#1010799 - 02/05/08 01:14 PM Re: Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.  
Joined: Jan 2007
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deeluk Offline
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deeluk  Offline
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Posts: 163
Fort Collins, CO
Quote
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Quote
Originally posted by deeluk:
[b] Whenever I hit the record button, my playing always seems to rachet down a notch.
Just so you know Deeluk, this isn't easy to do. I don't know what makes you think you can do this in a couple of days laugh
[/b]
Well, I didn't mean I'd master it in a few days. Just that I hope to get something that I could bring myself to post here.
Quote

The hardest to synch are chord arpeggios unless you arrive at some pattern in advance (not a bad idea at first) so you hear how it sounds like. Work out a few different patterns.
Yup. I started doing this. I wondered if by doing so, I was "cheating". Plus, it gets very repetitive playing the same lick over and over. So, after I rapped myself across the knuckles, I started trying to vary my patterns. For instance, I'll think OK, start with an eighth note run and then do a half-eighth stab on the next chord. Then a chord arp. Another chord arp... etc. Then, the next time through, I'd start with quarter note chord tones, then a run, a long note, etc.

I seem to be stuck in a pattern. I can hear every other chord change. So, I have to pray the note I end on works for the "next" chord. For instance, I play something over Am and end on A. Luckily that works for the D7 coming next. Then I play over the Gmaj but I don't "hear" the Cmaj. The Fm7b5 is loud and clear, but the B7b9 isn't. The Em is easy to pick out. So, I've been trying to work on this as well. I'll play a few times through just arp'ing each chord.

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