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Yes, and with Band in a Box I have the whole orchestra backing me up .

Serge

You got that right, Serge. Band in a Box keeps me glued to the piano. I even practice those 2-5-1 chord progressions with my GROUP!

Have you tried any of the ear training stuff? That too is fun.

Everyone, thank you so much for the kind words. I have to be honest though. I didn't really feel good about that recording before I posted it last night. I was determined to get something posted. I recorded that on the 2nd take, I think, and copied it over. I know I was pretty relaxed when I played that. I wasn't trying to force the swing feel like I think I have in the past. There were a couple of phrases in there that I stumbled across and "thought about ahead of time". Especially the chord tones on the 1st Gmaj.

Jazzwee, thank you especially. Your encouragement really helps. I certainly didn't expect my playing to be called "jazzy" or "swinging" at this point. I have been working really hard on this and I guess it's starting to pay off. I know I still have loads of stuff to learn.

Barb, nice work there. I'd say go for the eighth lines. I took the patterns jazzwee laid out, practiced maybe one of them for a bit and the result is what I posted.

My goodness, when will this amazement stop. That was AWESOME Great melodies and note selection. There were some memorable lines in there.

See how successful everyone is with a few guidelines? This should be encouraging to everyone that creating a solo and making your own music is within everyone's reach with a little hard work.

To break new ground here Barb, focus on two things:

1. Add space. No need to play so many notes. They're beautiful notes. But it will sound even better with less. I noticed Deeluk had a natural balance of space that was perfect.

2. If you can successfully build the swing feel here these solos will sound professional even with your current note selection which is absolutely great.

First I would deemphasize the extreme swing ratio and straighten out those eights more and focus on the offbeat accents.

Deeluk managed to straighten out his eights and sounds like Keith Jarrett . Deeluk, add some more offbeat accent to yours though for a stronger swing but the timing of the eight notes sound great.

This is fine tuning stuff. Can you believe how far everyone has gone in a few weeks? AWESOME.

Wow, that was so nice getting to listen to Deeluk and Barb's recordings this morning. You both are doing so well and everyone else too. Mr. Yamaha doesn't get the credit for that....it's Jazzwee all the way, LOL!

Jazzwee, my DP is only two years old so can't trade it in...but I think it does all those things if I was just smart enough to figure it out and took the time to do it. Deeluk helped me tho so I now can play over a recording and then record it. Now if I just had someone to play my right hand for me.

Yesterday I went back thru the thread and listened to a lot of the recordings and everyone was really playing so well....so congratulations to everyone that posted earlier too. Please come back and inspire us some more!

Alene

Great tips, jazzwee. Thank you.

Why is it that we are all hard of hearing when it comes to analyzing our own playing?

Deeluk didn't think he played well. My goodness - I thought he sounded like Keith Jarrett also.
Hey deeluk - jazzwee mentioned you and Jarrett in the same sentence. You better print that out and frame it.

We wouldn't be progressing at all, jazzwee, if it were not for your professional guidance. You say you're not a pro - Well, you're on your way to being an extremely competent jazz teacher .... just think of the big bucks you'll be getting someday if you get into this type of teaching as a side occupation.

Thank you Barb.

Right now it's my big bucks that's going to my teacher (MOST expensive in town) I'm spreading the knowledge around for free

BTW this is such an important point. If you remember in the Lesson on Playing in the Pocket, I said that if you can hear yourself being off time, you're improving.

I find this true even in my own development. As I hear problems in my own playing, it usually indicates that I'm about to improve. It's when I think that I sound cool that I'm actually in a rut.

Sometimes, I go to my teacher and the only thing I get is criticism, meaning I have no new things to work on so just keep working on the same issue. And that time is spent just making me aware of some issue, let's say I'm always screwing up a particular measure. Then when I figure this out, other things unrelated seem to get better too.

This is why it is important to post our solos because we learn to hear what others hear and then we move on to the next level. I think this is also improved when we listen to Jazz.

I remember when I first started when listening to Bill Evans that it just seemed impossible to transcribe; like it was going too fast. Nowadays, I could play the notes on the piano after just hearing it. This ear development I think is what is important to developing skill in Jazz and seems to come naturally after awhile.

So keep posting your music and it's in our failings that we improve. Nothing to be ashamed about, especially for those who have not yet posted.

Jazzwee, I hope, I have not mislead you or anyone else by saying this was my first solo attempt, meaning I heard the sound & phrasing in my head on the fly. That would be far from the truth! In actual fact, I spent quite some time in putting the short stretch together, but It was done by noodling around on the piano, trying to follow the rules set out by you of using the 3rd chord tone. I then tried to think rests, all 4 chord tones, eighth notes, G scale etc. for variation & interest.

Do I like the result myself? Not sure! However, I broke the ice & ventured into soloing & that is the real positive from this for me. Despite all the good advice & knowing that the 3rd chord tone was the first key step to contemplate, it took me a while to feel confident of producing something, that was not totally horrendous.

Purely, as an aid, next time, I shall jot down ideas on a staff, to avoid forgetting what I had just played & liked. It may also help any sense of positioning in a measure(s). I hope it's not frowned upon, as it may assist temporarily. We'll see!

I am not sure, why you think I was using a different approach, unless you are referring to my not basically using long horn type notes solely. I tried to make the solo more interesting by more variation, as I was not too happy by my long note efforts at 120bpm. I do not wish to go off at any tangents, as I am enjoying the course set fair by you in this wonderful thread.

My LH was sometimes out of synch., but I do prefer to do something with it, when practicing, even if it is simply hitting the 1st beat of the bar, as in the soloing. It helps to time my RH. In the melody, I also tried to use the rootless voicings, especially with the melody part & I think some of these were timed OK.

Thanks for phrase ending tips. They will be most useful.

Deeluk, thanks for your encouragement & tip. I think, my solo rendition was, perhaps, too busy & I should use less notes. I certainly liked your solo & it sounded like good swing to me too. You should join Barb & change your ID to "Swinging Deeluk"!

I listen to everyone's submissions, as I am sure you all do, but purposefully I only previously played any solos once, as I did not wish to inadvertently plagiarise or be influenced too much, until I produced my first individual effort. I can now comfortably analyse & glean further ideas from your fine attempts.

Alene, thanks for your kind remarks too & good luck with your own journey in AL.

Sorry for the lengthy posting. And Jazzwee & all other contributors, thanks again.

Kanga

You know, I think I will print it out and frame it. I'll probably never hear that said about my playing again.

I think I was so focused on hearing all of the changes, which I still cannot do. And trying to come in on the & of 4, which I still cannot do. And accenting the upbeats, which I still cannot do. Maybe that's why I was being so critical of myself. When I listen to that recording now, without trying to hear all of those things, I guess I do hear some decent lines in there.

Thanks gang! This really helps!

Just caught up reading the latest posts!

Swinging Barb & Rosa, thanks for your kind remarks.

Barb, you have a fine & an appropriate name. You're also so prolific. with your submissions. Good on 'yer.

LaValse, I understand your problem. My wife wants to go on holiday & cannot understand, I have no time available!

Kanga

I'd like to just echo this. Take my example. What I was hearing was obviously very different from others' opinion. Had I never posted my recording, I never would have known. If you are holding back posting something because you don't think it's good enough, don't. You may be being overly critical of yourself. And you might miss out on the feedback of what you're actually doing very well. So, post away!

Kangamangsuk, I misunderstood the non-real time development of your lines. If done in real time, I thought you had a good ear for developing instant melodies (which everyone will develop after awhile).

Certainly some jazzers have been know to precompose their lines. And it is a good exercise to do during practice.

But the goal of course is to see how can react in real time. True Jazz is real time improvising. We can precompose short patterns for example, or copy them (riffs, licks), and presumably when you have several thousand of this in your head you can execute them. This is the alternate style of improvising that some people do.

I will not suggest here that the way I've laid out is the only way as there are successful players who do the riff approach (Oscar Peterson as an example).

I've been unsuccesful with the riff/lick approach myself. If I'm lucky maybe I can remember to use them 1% of the time. But this varies from person to person. Some people will say that the style I'm describing here, which is more of an intellectual way to improvise (understanding the harmony, intervals, chord tones, downbeats). My teacher refers to it as MATH .

Because I've learned the riff/lick approach from a prior teacher, at least I have some experience with it to be of some help for those that prefer this approach.

The difficulty with riffs/licks is that when you encounter some complex new progression you'd be lost so in general, we need to master multiple approaches, though we may favor a particular approach.

Anyway, attempt to do stuff in real time (using preconcieved ideas if you wish).

Hi Gang,

I've been fighting this morning re: strong upbeat accents, and getting more space in my solo. After a bunch of takes, I still wasn't happy with the way I was accenting. So, I spent some time just singing with my group - no playing involved. I just sang away, not worrying about the notes, just concentrating on the accents.

So jazzwee, did I get rid of the Mickey Mouse swing on this one? I was definitely counting as I played to try to accent the "and". It is hard to get rid of that triplet sound. Please let me know if I am a bit closer to a good upbeat accent.

It's also very hard to play fewer notes. Looking at my printout, I see a bunch of rests - so that's encouraging. I even made myself not play on a couple of measures.

Here it is - worts and all....

http://www.box.net/shared/qhfuve7ksk

That sounds much more natural Barb and certainly are successful with the rests

Here's some tips:

1. Make each phrase like a sentence. Too short and it sounds too choppy. It should be similar to the way we talk. Occasional short phrases is ok but vary the length more.

2. If you end on an eighth note, cut the eight note short. In other words decide if you're going to play it long (quarter note or more) and let it ring, or if it's an eighth put a rest after. This enhances the swing feel.

3. Work on getting some arpeggios in there for variety (not necessarily in a particular order, e.g. it could be 3 1 3 5 3). To bring in a variety of intervals.

4. You may want to practice just eighth notes like a scale so you're comfortable with just the accents (not overswinging). To exaggerate the accent for practice purposes, soften the downbeat notes even more so there's more contrast. Play it fairly even if you can just so we can practice reducing that overswung ratio.

You did do it less sing-songy but this exercise is just to develop your ability to go in either direction (straight/hard swing) at will. Even the hardest swingers (Wynton Kelly) will go in both directions in one tune.

It might be a good idea to record just scale practice of eighth notes with offbeat accents just to work out this single issue.

Hope this helps

Great analogy Jazzee - to make each phrase like a sentence. It's kind of like me carrying on a conversation with the harmony.

Funny that when I try to iron out new problems, I take a step backwards with the old ones - like not cutting those eighth notes short at the end of a phrase. I think our progress will be much like - here's a step forward, here's a half step backwards.

Question Re - straight vs hard swing. I have read about those ratios between the first eighth and second eighth note. I assume that when you speak of "straight" swing, you are referring to EVEN 8ths with the "and" strongly accented.

So, is HARD swing a triplet feel with the second eighth accented? If so, that is the easy stuff for me.

I'm glad you mentioned Wynton Kelly. Before starting your thread, I had been generating solos with Band in a Box using the Wynton Kelly style. I memorized 8 of those 16 measure solos. It was based on the Autumn Leaves chord progression, but in the key of Bb. I felt very comfortable playing along with that triplet feel. But, I do prefer the sound of the even, but accented eighths.

As always, your feedback is so very helpful - Thank you.

Hi Gang: Barb, I just listened to your solo and enjoyed it. I know exactly what you mean about taking a step backward. I feel the same way.

I tried to just play the right hand but that doesn't work for me....because I keep getting lost. Seems I need the left hand in the chord to know where I am in the song so, for now, I gave up on that and just tried playing the chord on the first beat and then soloing in the right hand using just chord tones and repeated notes.

I know this doesn't sound jazzy and I'm beginning to doubt whether I can ever be a Jazz player, LOL!

Like Barb said, when I try to concentrate on just playing something off the top of my head then I can't think of accenting. I'm really not happy with this but maybe by posting it will help to find out everything I'm doing wrong (which is a lot). :rolleyes:

http://www.box.net/shared/bgf4vzzks4

Alene

Barb, yes, hard swing is triplet feel or a 2:1 ratio. This ratio is very extreme by the way. Most jazz is a ratio less than this that's why the triplet feel is not an accurate representation.

When you play straight eights with strong accents, the line will have a delayed feel to it. Because in the end what it means is lengthening the accented note and it has a different swing effect.

Straight eights without accents will sound like classical music.

I don't think that when I say straight that I ever play 1:1. It's just closer to it. Maybe straighter eights is 1.2:1 or something like that. No one really swings evenly so don't take this ratios as mathematically correct.

I have a sample solo by Wynton Kelly that I can analyze and it has both straigher and hard swing in the one tune. I could examine how close he gets to 2:1 when he does the hard swing. Wynton can swing the hardest (although he will mix it with straight for effect). Bill Evans swings pretty hard too on fast tunes. No swing on slow.

Wynton has strong upbeat accents BTW.

Hi Alene, notes are good! Soften the Left hand (a lot) and just play whole notes on beat 1. BUT LAY OFF THE PEDAL

I did the pedal too on my early jazz lessons and one of my teachers banned me from ever using the pedals again.

It's ok to play whole notes on the LH chords. Bill Evans did this a lot. So I would practice Charleston as a separate thing but it's very advanced to do it while soloing. Quite hard to do actually so don't feel bad about it.

Another way of doing it is to lay your LH on the chords for guidance but don't actually press down. Because you really need to focus on the RH.

The other thing that you need to add to your lines is space. Like I said to Barb, say a sentence then take a breath. You'll see your lines improve just from the extra thinking time.

Good luck and great job!

Nice job Barb and Alene. Barb, I'm struggling mightily with accenting the upbeats too. Whenever I try too hard, it really sounds like I'm trying too hard. Just not natural at all. I've played the scale exercise in Lesson 8 countless times trying to work on this. Doing it while trying to improvise a line still seems out of reach to me. But I keep trying.

Alene, glad to hear your stuff. If you need that LH to help you find your way, I say play it. As JW suggested, just play whole notes over there. Or just hover with your fingers over the chords you would be playing otherwise. I think it was in the Jarrett video that I saw him doing this as well. For me, trying to add the LH while soloing just causes everything to fall apart. It's taken me a long time to just be able to hear the chord changes and not get lost in the progression while trying to solo. And I still do a lot of the time. But I think it is slowly getting better.

I had the same feeling as you two last night while I was practicing. Felt like I had taken a step backwards from the day before. My lines felt very repetitive and non-jazzy. I kept hesitating and tripping over myself. There are good solo days and bad solo days...