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Hi Gaby Tu, the spellling of F#m7b5 is
F# A C E, not Eb. This is half diminished not fully diminished. I'm going to spend a lot of time on chord spelling momentarily in order to introduce voicings so I will explain this in more detail.

Yes, Mp3 and midi file. With midi file I can slow it down.

Serge

jazzwee, anyway you can record a midi of this piece to demonstrate the rhythm accenting that you talked about? I'd be useful to be able to see your actual fingering.

For people without something better, you can see the piano fingering when playing the midi with something like the free Vanbasco's Karaoke Player.

ADVANCED TOPIC - IGNORE

Hi Elssa, I'll give a brief explanation here but this is advanced so I'll have to repeat it later on in advanced soloing.

We don't use the E Melodic Minor per se in Autumn Leaves. We CAN use the VI mode of the Melodic Minor, I believe called "Locrian #2" and this can used against half diminished chord. But there other scales than be used on this chord called "Diminished Whole Tone" or ALT scale (VII mode of the Melodic Minor).

The Em7 uses just a plain Minor Scale (same as G Major Scale).

B7b9 could use a half-whole diminished scale, an ALT scale (VII Mode of Melodic Minor), a plain Mixolydian mode of G, a Whole Tone scale.

So as you can see Melodic and Harmonic minor scales in E don't necessarily fit in Autumn Leaves. These scales use a Maj7 interval which is used in Major/Minor Chords and doesn't exist in this tune. But their modes are very interesting because it is from the Melodic minor modes that many of the sounds in jazz come from.

If you have something more specific to ask, I will try to answer it.

BTW - A tune that comes to mind with Minor/Major chords is My Funny Valentine. Perfect use of a harmonic minor.

In your link I noticed that they managed to use the harmonic minor by substituting the chords in Autumn Leaves. So for our base chords here it wouldn't work.

Van, I sold my keyboards recently and I haven't purchased a new one yet so I have no MIDI instrument. I'm stuck with MP3 at the moment.

"Harmonic minor scale: The same as the natural minor but with a chromatically raised seventh degree".

Would that raised seventh degree of the E minor harmonic scale be the D# note used in the B7 chord?

Thanks for the clarification on the spelling of the F# 1/2 dim. 7th. Also thanks for giving the link to the Jazclass detailed analysis of the chords, progressions etc. I am so excited about this. After only playing classical music, note for note as it is written, this is a whole new experience for me. Currently I am trying to learn to pick out melodies by ear. Slow going, but bit by bit, it is getting easier. Gaby Tu

ADVANCED TOPIC - IGNORE

No actually, not directly IMO because it doesn't explain why there's a C# in the same melody. C# doesn't belong in the Harmonic minor scale. It does show up in the Melodic Minor scale, but that scale excludes the C which is the b9 of B, a critical note.

The scales that I described above would be the ones used on the F#m7b5-B7b9-Em7 progression. Use of any other scale would require reharmonization of the chords.

In jazz, it is important to understand the modes of the melodic minor (ascending) which has many more uses than the melodic minor by itself.

I'm glad you're enjoying this Gaby Tu. We are at such an early phase here. We are barely making a dent at understanding everything we can understand from this one tune. Sometimes I just want to spend hours and hours writing everything up but it would be so confusing so I have to hold it back.

The good news is that I figured this all out in a fairly short time (I think a year's worth of theory self-study) so it's very doable.

Here's an excerpt where I do a Charleston rhythm on the LH.

http://www.box.net/shared/od6cr5e4oc

I'm not good at it but it's good practice to learn to create a swinging rhythm on the LH. Note that modern Jazz doesn't use Charleston on the LH. This is an exercise to develop swing feel in comping. I didn't have a metronome on but I would practice this with 2 & 4 on the metronome.

Most modern rhythms are derived from this so once you figure out the concept, you listen to jazz masters play and see what they do to the LH. They will use long notes, short notes, staccato, etc. but there will be an off balance nature to their comping so that it doesn't land in a consistent place like downbeats.

Note that Charleston rhythm is best practiced against a rhythm section or at least a metronome. It was hard to do it by myself without some accurate pulse as my RH was already syncopating.

So please remember that this is mostly an exercise. You will eventually comp with some variation of this (like I did at the beginning).

These scales and modes are pretty confusing to me, but I think I remember hearing somewhere that the Mixolydian is the most commonly used mode. Is that right? Thanks.

ADVANCED TOPIC - IGNORE

If playing just a diatonic scale, you'll have to go through the common modes of Ionian, Dorian, and Mixolydian in a typical ii-V-I. But in modern jazz, Mixolydian is shunned for more exotic scales so I'm going to guess that Dorian is probably the most common.

But you could be correct for non-jazz.

I'll go through some of these later in detail. It isn't completely necessary to understand modes to play any of this. Modes just identify the scale to be used. If you already know the notes of the scale to be used, not knowing what 'mode' it came for is just academic. Do you really think I remember VI or VII mode of the melodic minor at the top of my head? I forgot what they were called so I looked it up.

But I always remember the scale by name like "Diminished Whole Tone" so it doesn't matter that I forgot what mode it came from. Modes can be unecessary complexity IMHO and is fine for academic learning. We could skip discussing modes and not miss a beat.

However discussing "scales" is closely related since scales are derived from modes. We could study closely how one makes flour from wheat but I think we can make bread just starting from the flour and not have to visit the farm.

So at least for this thread, we will be discussing scales. Some of them will have unusual shapes.

Some sample scales we will discuss:

Half-Whole Diminished
Whole-Half Diminished
Diminished Whole Tone (Altered Scale)
Whole Tone

The rest of the common scales are derived from the major scale so it is not necessary to discuss those modes since the notes are the same. There are alternative ways of explaining modes that I personally think are more relevant and this has to do with discussing primary chord (1,3,5,7) tones and extensions (9,11,13 and their alterations). I find these are easier to explain so I was planning on using this explanation later.

So for the moment, just make a note in your head that MODE = Some sort of Scale.

Now for your personal reading, you can read up on this:

I Chords (Maj7) = Ionian Mode
II Chords (min7) = Dorian Mode
V Chords (Dom 7) = Mixolydian Mode

Which in simplified terms just means, "What starting note in the Major scale is used for these chords?". The answer is the same as the scale degree. In the key of C, I = C, II = D, and V= 5. Playing a scale, starting on a different note changes the color of the scale, even though they are the same notes. Of course this is the exact principle of Scale Degrees which we already discussed earlier (notes on the keyboard are not symmetrical due to distribution of black keys).

Wow, this thread is going WAY to fast for me to keep up. There's a lot of different discussions going on all at once. Anyone else feel overwhelmed?

F#m7b5 is an F#m7 chord with a lowered 5th.

If you know how to construct chords from scale degrees then playing a half-diminished chord is the same as playing a minor-7th chord but with the 5th lowered a half-step.

In root position, you can simply move your LH index finger a half-step down.

Thanks for the suggestion, I will post files on examples. Does the group prefer midi and/or audio files?

In playing/performing AL, don't forget, that yes it's played as a swinging upbeat jazzstandard, it was originally written as a ballad - and a french ballad to boot. (hearing Yves Montand humming it is . . sublime)

Now slightly OT, I'm interested in verse. Or rather verses. Which I find sometimes to of more musical interest than the refrain (which is always performed). The AL you are playing is only half of the song; the refrain. The verse - heck nobody (well, nearly nobody) plays that.
What do I mean with this rambling is that . . don't forget the musical context. It's a song. Read the lyrics for inspiration. Try and find it sung in the original language . . . it might make a difference for your interpretation.

Another thing, don't forget to listen - a lot - to jazz if you want to play jazz. It's an aural tradition. Get an inner feel for the tune. If you want listening suggestions just ask.
And play-a-long. Play alongside with the masters (put on a cd, mp3, youtube). Even if it's just the melody at first, then maybe play the chords. Not to imitate, but to emulate.
Btw, those of you with a classical background; about AL: think Bach.

Ok. Here's some audio examples of the 2-and.

A: midi mp3
B:II-V movement midi mp3
C: AL-sequence midi mp3
D: AL-lite. 2-and + melody midi mp3

All done at 100bpm w a metronome. and a ratty old mother keyboard in an unfamiliar key (for me at least, so it was fun getting to know it in Em)

Yeah, there's a lot to keep up with, especially because there are different people at different levels.

I'm not sure what the solution is though. It's almost like we need separate threads for Autumn Leaves Level 1, 2, 3, etc.

I'm only away just over 24 hours & I have so many posts to read & catch up with. That will be my next job!

Back to the subject of trying to learn swing feel, here are my midi link files for those interested. Instead of using my computer & an old version of Cakewalk, I created these on my Clavinova, which clearly shows on its score display, where applicable, that triplets are being timed.

ChrisBell's base line pattern - tempo 120 - http://www.box.net/shared/dbvjlfns4g

Ditto - tempo 150 - http://www.box.net/shared/dplw1qxuso

Jazzwee's Charleston pattern - tempo 120 - http://www.box.net/shared/qacqvjr28o

Ditto - tempo 150 - http://www.box.net/shared/mae7rmu68c

In each file the melody line simply consists of a G scale up & down over 3 measures & then duplicated for another 3 measures for length as follows;

1st 6 measures - even 8ths with triplet feel
2nd 6 measures - eighths ratio 3:2 with same triplet feel
3rd 6 measures - ratio 2:1 with triplet feel
4th 6 measures - even eighths (no triplet feel at all)
5th 6 measures - dotted quaver/ semiquaver (again no triplet feel)

There should be a swing feel to all examples, as the offbeat notes are all accented.

Does this help anyone? I'm not sure.

ChrisBell, welcome. Your contribution is appreciated already. Also a number of other contributors have been busy & I must now catch up on their posts.

What a good study group!

David

That seems like a great idea to me!

Does seem that we have several different themes going at the same time and it is getting confusing.

I disagree to separate threads. I understand that it's getting confusing. But separating it would create more ehh confusion imho.
Playing jazz IS difficult, it takes study and dedication (a dedication which all of you do show!), and asking a lot of questions. Remember: there are NO stupid or "to simple" questions. By sticking together we will all sort it out together.

Though maybe a header for each different aspect of playing AL. LH-comp, RH-melody, scales/theory, etc. That might make it easier to jump to what interests me at the moment and makes it easier to search.
(in forums like this one I copy (the question and answer) and paste the text into a text app. so that I can collect and print out if needed). I've worked in the field of music for 30 years in many different capacity's and I still learn a lot from beginners and pros alike.