Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Duane Shinn

Hello:
I'm wondering if anyone has taken any of his on-line courses, and what you thought.
Thanks!

I've taken a couple of his courses - not online, but video and audio.
I've gotten a lot out of them and am still using them.
In fact I'm working with one of them as we speak. (The 52-week video master-course)
Can't say I care for his websites, though - kind of over-the-top, IMHO.

Of all the courses I've seen advertised, his is the one I'm most interested in. The only problem for me is that it's kind of pricey.

It's not cheap. I have it on VHS - it's on DVD now.
It is a year's worth of lessons - I've been through it about three times now and continue to learn new things.
However, I hesitate to recommend it for anyone else, because everybody has different expectations and needs. That said, I'm glad I got it.

Can any of you give a brief description of what his approach is and what sets this curriculum apart from the others?

Hi:

Go to playpiano.com

-Angelo

Duane has a zillion courses (and several websites), as you can probably tell from his website if you go there.
The course I'm talking about is his 52-week video class (weekly lessons).
They work out of a series of books called "Modern Piano" which looks like a typical set of early-level books (8 books).
Using the books as a framework for teaching, he expands on that and goes into all kinds of instruction for keyboard arranging, improvising, etc.
It's initially aimed at beginners, but there's plenty there for more advanced players as well, especially if they don't have any improvising or arranging (fake book) skills.

Sorry, but anybody that has their knowledge for sale in 31 different flavors, each priced at >$50, is more of a "marketer" than a teacher.

Sudnow, Piano Magic: one price, one course, lots for you to learn about music.

EP, I just visited the web site and see what you mean by your 'over the top' comment. I think he'd be benefited by removing some of the clutter and testimonials.

frog52 said:
I think it's safe to say that Shinn, Sudnow, and PianoMagic all have their share of satisfied customers and perhaps also their share of not-so-satisfied customers.
I think it's also safe to say that their teaching methods are quite different - some may find a better fit with one than with another.
I'd prefer to judge each of them by the quality of their teaching materials rather than by the quality or quantity of their marketing materials.

Since they've all been mentioned, here's my best guess at a comparison of the Shinn, Sudnow, and PianoMagic courses.
(I've been a student of the PianoMagic and Shinn courses - the Sudnow, I only know from what I've read here, so this is just a best guess).
PianoMagic is a play-by-ear method - you know the melody (by singing or humming it to yourself, etc.), and are able to play it, with accompaniment, embellishment, etc., without referring to the written music.
Sudnow, from what I can gather, teaches more contemporary arrangements with some sort of dot notation. That's about all I can say about it, except that it sounds like he does not refer to standard musical notation. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
Shinn primarily works from a more traditional type of teaching - understanding scales, keys, etc., and playing from standard written music, either grand staff or fake-book notation, adding many kinds of accompaniment styles, embellishments, chord substitutions, etc. I'd classify it as a more pop-style than classical-style music he's working with.
That's all an over-simplification, I'm sure, but that's my take on it with a broad brush.

Thank You, gang!

I should probably add, too, that while PianoMagic has a very active member forum, with regular participation by Mike, the instructor, Shinn doesn't have anything like that, at least as far as I know.
You buy the course, you get tapes, books, etc., and you're on your own.

My take on it (and I apologise if I mis-characterise any of the systems) is that Shinn teaches 'styles' and skills to people who want to play at a professional level. PianoMagic seems more oriented to someone who just wants to play for personal enjoyment without developing the skills that a professional musician would need.

That's probably not really a fair characterization, as I know some of the PianoMagic students definitely have professional playing as a goal.
But I think Shinn is teaching a broader curiculum which to my way of thinking would better prepare a student for more professional opportunities. That said, I doubt if anyone looking for a classical concert career would find what they need there.
Much would depend on what skills you felt you had to have to play professionaly and in what venues.
Personally, I wouldn't consider myself a professional unless I had a broad base of knowledge, including the ability to play both at sight and by ear. (My personal goal).
Others I'm sure would feel differently.
I don't know if this clarifies anything. There are endless debates here on PW about sight-reading versus playing by ear. Shinn teaches that both are important, but puts less emphasis on what you might think of as "pure" ear-playing since you work from a book. If you want to sit at a piano and play from a melody you know in your head, (even at a professional level) PianoMagic probably gets you there quicker, at least that's my feeling.

My personal opinion is that if you want to be a professional pianist, PianoMagic is not the way to get there. For the work I do, reading is a must as well as playing by ear, transposing, and improvising. Above all, a professional musician's playing has to be 'tastey' (which means that it has well crafted harmonies and melodies). What I've seen and heard of 'PianoMagic' just doesn't teach the 'craft' part of what a professional musician needs. I think it's great though because, while it doesn't teach you to be a pro, it can get you started enjoying the piano right away.

I'd say we have a similar outlook.
(Have to add, though, that I only stuck with PianoMagic for a few weeks as it just didn't seem like it was productive for me - others obviously have a different response to it.)

w_scott, what is the source for your conclusions? Actually, Mike's goal is to take anybody who wants to, and is willing to follow his instruction and guidance all the way to the professional level.

What you've seen and heard is the proverbial tip of the iceberg. Nobody posting on Pianoworld from PM has more than 2.5 years with it and most have much less than a year. But that's ok, if you're still around, check us out in another year.

Here is a sample of Mike's playing style. This is not necessarily the style that the rest of us will develop. Both Seaside Lee and Balladeer have been with the program for over 2 years and they don't sound alike. Unlike many teachers/methods, Mike is pushing us to develop our own style. After all, playing by ear means no guardrails.

http://www.pianomagic.com/PMMOcourse/mp3.html

Bob, I totally missed that page in the forum. WOW.

http://www.pianomagic.com/PMMOcourse/mp3.html

The link truly is masterful. Mike Anderson plays with such emotion, and he's a super cool guy/teacher to boot. http://www.pianomagic.com/PMMOcourse/mp3.html

Bump.

Hi walter and jazp

it teaches exactly that

yup , it takes longer than a few weeks

I have been with it for 2 and a half years and I am only just getting into the juicy stuff...

I played for 5 hours at a wedding reception on Saturday (just for my own amusement)...everyone assumed I was the hired pianist, singing-a-long and crowding round (it was kinda kool )


Lee

Of course. My point is that it only took me a few weeks to figure out my time there was not productive for ME.
Lots of folks get a lot out of PianoMagic and I think that's great.
I respect and appreciate your enthusiasm for PianoMagic.
I just don't agree with some of the basic premises or how they are presented, that's all.
Duane Shinn's teaching style is more in line with my learning style.
That's my point - and I encourage anyone who's gotten this far in this thread and is interested in comparing them to investigate for themselves.
Piano music is a HUGE field (like the blind man and the elephant) and there are lots of ways to approach it.
I'm sure we can agree on that...?

I had listened to Mike's playing before. But, I gave it another listen just now anyway. First let me say that Mike seems like a wonderful person - a truly motivational type. And, I don't want to disparage his playing or his system. His approach has given a lot of people an opportunity to play and I genuinely respect that. I'm sure it will impress non-musicians, but it is not the kind of playing that a professional musician would care to emmulate. For me to try to list here the differences between what he does and what a professional does would appear to be criticism, but I'd be happy to chat with anyone who'd care to via private message. Let me reiterate that I think Mike is an exceptional person who has the unique ability to make the pursuit of music fun, and that's no small talent!

EP,

I am sure there are people reading this thread trying to decide where to spend their $$$$.

In all fairness, we need to compare what you can get for a given amount: Piano Magic is $189, Sudnow is $120.

Which Duane Shinn course would you recommend to those wanting to stay in the 100-200$ bracket?

Thanks.

It all depends on what you want to learn. Some people want to get the kind of lessons that will prepare them for serious study. Others want to entertain themselves and their friends. A lot of Duane Shinn's courses are useful to someone who already has traditional training but want's to learn piano styles used professionally. PianoMagic gets the average beginner playing right away, but doesn't give you the type of background that would get you into a university music program. They're very different programs that address entirely different needs.

jazp...of course we agree...but, knowing what I know and what I now can see...I still feel you may have missed the bigger picture that Mike wants you to see?...

Why do I feel this way? because, I am sure we wouldn't be having this conversation if you had really got it.

I may be wrong and you may have already understood the bleedin' obvious that Mike wants us all to see and if you did then you didn't need his help in the first place...but, as I see you are still buying into more courses something tells me you may be still missing something?

W_scott...he has been a *pro pianist* for 37 years...so whether its to your taste or not?...people do pay him and having been hiring him and re-hiring for all those years.

I love the way he plays but, I also love Erroll Garner, Art Tatum, Bill Evans, Ludovico Einuadi, Ray Charles, Elton John, David Sudnow and many, many, many others and contrary to what you think I am starting to see that I can take this piano playing thang any which way I choose...how do I know?...because I am starting to do it and play it the way I want to.

I'd be happy to hear your thoughts on what a pro pianist is or isn't right here


regards


Lee

frog52,
I wish I had a good answer for you, but I don't. It's kind of apples and oranges.
With PianoMagic, you spend your $189 and you can hang out there 24/7 for a year without spending another nickel. I don't know how Sudnow works, my only knowledge is what I've read here.
Duane Shinn has so many courses; it's kind of a-la-carte and a bit confusing, but he has a catalog that might make it a bit clearer.
The one-year course costs considerably more (around $1,000), and probably covers many of the topics that are in the other courses.
I've taken the one-year course and the 36-lesson Pro Secrets course and there's enough there to keep me busy for a long time. (Although I have a lot of other stuff I use too - a library full! - I've been at this for a while.)
He does offer free lessons via his website. Plus, he does (or at least he used to) offer 1/2 price deals if you're on his mailing list.
As a disclaimer, I'll reiterate that I'm not recommending Shinn's courses (or anybody else's for that matter) to anyone. I have no financial or sentimental interest in any of them; only my personal experience and opinions to share, which are probably worth exactly what you pay for them.

Seaside,
I guess an admission is in order. I've been studying and playing piano for over ten years; for the past five it's been essentially full time. Prior to that I played other instruments for many years.
Although I've had lessons from several teachers, I prefer learning on my own and am always looking for new ideas and ways of looking at things. I'm very committed, both in time and money, to this pursuit, and there are few piano teaching methods (at least that I've found) that I haven't at least checked into. Eventually, I hope to put together my own teaching program as time goes on, so I view some of it as research, to know what's out there, and how it works.
I think I see the big picture, more and more all the time.
Based on the glowing recommendations PianoMagic received from you and others, I thought it was worth checking out.
I agree with w_scott that Mike seems like a wonderful, generous person who is helping a lot of people learn how to play the piano.
That said, I have a personal negative response to the way he presents the material. I've alluded to some of that in the past and don't want to get too much into that as I don't want to come across as critical, just to say that it's not for me.
(Perhaps I should add that I purchased the Shinn courses some five years ago, been through them a few times and am still finding lots of good stuff to learn).

Seaside,
I'm going to add this as an aside.
Mike (and PianoMagic folks) talk a lot about how music thinks, how melody leads to harmony in a natural way.
I couldn't agree more. That's where harmony comes from and always has.
I've heard it said on the forum there that PianoMagic is really the only place where you learn how music thinks, but that you have to learn it in one key (generally C but take your pick), without the aid of written music. After a time, you can apply it to other keys. (Correct me it I'm wrong here, but Mike seems quite adamant about this).
I studied with Dick Grove for some time before he sadly passed away in 1998. Believe me, he was very clear that learning music and piano is all about learning how melody leads to harmony, and how harmony leads through the keys in a natural motion.
But he taught that you learn it in all keys at the same time. He taught it that way to thousands of students at the Grove School of Music (and many more through his correspondence courses) and that's the way I learned it.
He also taught that to be a professional musician you need to see what you hear and hear what you see (and play what you hear) (via standard music notation, lead sheet notation, and sounds either vocalized or heard in the head).
That's the way I learned it, and I think you can probably see how that is quite different from the way Mike teaches, and why that might cause a conflict for me.

Hi EP

Yes I understand all of what you are saying...

but, here is what I don't understand?

I know you don't like the layout of the site (which is being improved as we speak) but the whole idea of the forums is for you to interact with Mike...that's why it is that way...he wants you to ask...he also wants you to send him your music so he can listen to you and help you (if he can...sort of like a regular piano teacher would do) and help you and everyone else with his critiques...why would you pay good money and miss out on that part?

(I don't want to keep harping on to you because you've said you are going to have another look)

But...

I want you to interact with Mike...I want you to tell Mike what you are saying here..I want to learn from Mikes answers with you.

You are probably more advanced than any student at pianomagic...you will ask questions I could never even dream of asking (because you are waaaaay beyond me) and I along with many others was excited that you were pushing Mike into areas we all want to go and learning kool stuff along with you

I am sure Mike gets tired of answering the same questions from beginners over and over (although he never shows it).

I know for a fact he loves working out more difficult questions...its a learning process for him too.

Every member will benefit from your questions, so please get this stuff off your chest over there.

It is like Mikes life mission to work with each and every member personally...so hey! you may even get him to make you some kool videos or audios for *you* that we all benefit from...that's what you bought into and thats what I was soooooooooo excited about with you!!

make any sense?


Lee

Lee,
Actually, I do go there from time to time and have a look, but I get frustrated before I get very far. I have enough things to work on that the fact that I spent my $189 for PianoMagic is not enough motivation for me to spend time there if I don't feel it is the most productive use of my time.
But it brings up a point that I haven't mentioned yet - and that is time. (As in timing).
All this is meant as an observation only ...
First, a couple of caveats -
First, I am currently primarily focused on small-group playing, as I have a combo I am going to be playing with this summer. PianoMagic, as far as I can tell, is exclusively focused on solo playing, which is all well and good (and important) but just less of a focus for me now.
Second, I have to admit, in my selfishness, that I seldom listen to the music people put up here at PianoWorld or at PianoMagic. Mea Culpa, but the awful truth is, that since I have essentially unlimited access to the music of the great pianists, but limited time to spend listening, when I do listen I usually pick McCoy or Herbie or Bill Evans (or ME ) rather than Super-Hunky or Seaside (no offense )
Nevertheless I have to say this, since I've gotten this far, that an almost universal problem in the (admitedly few) samples of PianoMagic people that I have listened to is timing, and I haven't seen any strong emphasis on that from Mike, at least at the outset. Maybe he gets into more of that in the "Working with" threads. Rubato is one thing, and expected in a solo piano setting, but my experience from playing with lots of folks in different settings, is that people who almost always play alone, without backup or at least a drum machine or metronome, have trouble keeping time in a group, and good timing should be emphasized right from the get-go, not as something to work on later. Just my opinion, but I hold it strongly.
(Maybe not even appropriate to this discussion, but it is one of the things that has bothered me about PianoMagic and just happened to be on my mind).
If I'm wrong, I apologize in advance as I'm not holding myself up as a music critic.

Yup...timing is my new affliction...glad you brought it up (sheesh...thats hobie, Mike and now you! ...I know, I know, kick a guy when he's down eh?...just kidding )

and we are about to work on me and my timing issues(for the benfit of me and everyone else) any moment now really.

Strange it should be on your mind as it is on mine too...and I am waiting with bated breath for mikes help


to be continued...


Lee

BTW thanks for the honesty about not listening to my tunes...grrrr!

That does it. EP - how could you not listen to the wonderful works of both these dynamic, fantastic men.

I just don't know what else to say. You must, MUST change your entire routine right this minute and start listening - especially to Super-Hunky. He's the best - he's the greatest thing since sliced bread (where the heck is he, anyway).

Whew. I just had to blow off some steam. Thanks, EP. (you know I'm joking around with you.... time is a real issue, that's for sure). You're way advanced.... and you know... whenever for whatever will be for you. But don't stop the conversation just because silly little ole me popped in.

Later, and peace!

(don't tell Super-Hunky. I'm sure his timing is great, I just haven't had a chance to listen)

Gee.....can't take 2 or 3 minutes to listen to some of these great adult beginner piano players....you should make the time....it's very inspiring to hear what some of them have accomplished is relatively short periods of time!! I applaud all of the people who have posted your recordings!!! I'd rather listen to them than the "professionals"

EP, I was wanting to ask you a few questions about shinns course. Do you have e-mail or can you turn private messaging on?

I'm here. I don't know if I have the answers, but what are your questions?

My main concern is the video and audio quality. I can tell by his playing that he knows what he is doing but does he do a good job bringing his knowledge to the table.

I just find it crazy he charges so much for some of his courses. I looked at an improv combo set and it was over $600 and a pro secret course at the same. Is it worth it.

As far as the video and audio quality - I've had mine for a few years, and they are on audio cassette and VHS. It's instructional material and the production quality is certainly good enough for the purpose.
I've only got the pro secrets course and the year-long weekly-lesson video course. There's a wealth of information there, and I like his teaching style. You can probably buy books and get the same information for a lot less money.
Is it worth it? I can't say for you. For me, it was. I'm still using the tapes. That much money spent on private lessons would be long gone, and then some.
There's a lot of choices out there, and even a lot of free lessons you can find on the internet. Just depends on what works for you and what you're comfortable with.

I have looked around for books that teach what he does and nothing seems to come close. I also know what you are saying as far as paying a teacher and having it all lost.

I am lucky my teacher writes all my music and tapes the songs at the end of the lesson. Of course she tapes it with all the fillers, intros, and turn arounds, and all the other good stuff.

I am slowly but surely learning. When we review songs she adds new licks and tricks and bass movements so I will be challenged to learn. The problem is that my playing still sounds to dry and I want to understand why and how to add all these great sounding keys. I was very interested in his "How to dress up naked music" course.

You stated that he used to give discounts. Where did you find out about that?

I used to get flyers in the mail all the time, but I know they quit doing that some time ago. Duane has had at least one heart attack, and perhaps has had to slow down some since then.
You might just tell them you know someone who got some courses at a discount and see what they say, or you might sign up for their free lessons online and maybe they'll offer some deals.
I can't really recommend any particular books that cover what he teaches, because he does cover a lot of ground and I just don't know of any that really cover the same material.
A couple I do know of that have a lot of good stuff about playing popular style piano are one called "How to Play from a Fake Book". Mark Harrison's "Pop Piano Book" is also quite good.
I'm mostly into jazz and there are a lot of good jazz piano books, but Duane has a different approach than any of them.
I know others have recommended various books and/or video lessons so you might do a search of the forums.

Hi EP,
You posted to this forum years ago, so, I don't know if you will even see this reply, but it's worth a try!
I am very interested in taking my piano playing to the next level, to sound more "professional." You mentioned that you've purchased his "PRO SECRETS" course. How is it? Did you learn a lot from each disc in just one month, or did it take you a bit longer? Does he explain each secret in great detail and in a way where you will clearly understand what he is doing? Did other people notice a big difference in your playing? And, would it be best to take "How to Dress up Naked Music" first before taking the bigger course, since he covers a bit of things in that one? Shinn courses that I have bought in the past were excellent, but I was just wondering if the "PRO SECRETS" is worth the money, since it's $700! I really want to invest in this course, but was just wondering if it is REALLY worth the money, especially considering that it is a "learn on your own" type!

Thanks,

Kris